JV1080 or XV5080?

[Eddy Deegan]

Thanks Desmond

[forumuser892155]

Desmond - would the SRV keyboards app include ALL waveforms though, including drums etc.? In that case I really don't understand why there are so many SRV apps available on the cloud.

Marketing.

What *everybody* would have preferred they do is make a 5080 plugin, and release the SRX cards as extra options that "plugin" to that plugin, like the hardware, so you can make patches using waveforms from multiple cards.

Instead, Roland decided that it's a nice way to fill out the catalog to make a copy of the plugin for each SRX card, therefore they can advertise many more plugins on the Cloud service.

So: the 1080 plugin contains all the 5080 waves (which include the 1080 waves as a subset), and almost all the 5080 FX (the Fx are based on the Fantom's FX, which are a little different in places, but broadly comparable.).

The SRX plugins are the 1080 plugin with a different front skin, all the same wave/FX content as the 1080 plugin, *plus* extra waves pulled from one or more SRX cards and the matching preset banks. They do not contain *every* wave from the SRX card (for example, the ill-fated Dance card doesn't contain those questionable samples) but they contain most of the content.

So, if you get, say the Keyboards SRX, which includes waves from the sought-after Vintage card, they only thing you don't get over the standard 1080 is the 1080 presets - which like I say, there's an easy workaround for (I already provided them for the early SRX plugins).

So, you "get" more stuff if you get an SRX plugin, over the regular 1080.

it is a confusing mess, imo, I mean the 1080 wasn't a 1080, it was more like a 5080, but they called it the 1080 for... reasons, then made independent "SRX" versions of it (the 1080 didn't even load SRX cards) and *then*, after all, that, actually do a 5080 plugin, which is the exact same thing as the 1080 plugin, with a different front end and a few different patch banks. And a collapsable view.

Hoping to revive an old post...

I used to have a JV-1080 with the SR-JV80-02 (Orchestra) expansion board. I'd like to recreate some tracks that used these instruments using their RolandCloud counterparts, and was wondering if you could explain exactly how I would go about loading 1080 presets into the SRX Orchestra plugin, since they apparently contain the same waveforms/synthesis engine. Desmond?

I realize the presets in the SRX Orchestra are not identical to those in the SR-JV80-02 (though I do believe all the original waveforms are there), but the newer presets get me close enough.

Thanks!

[muzines]

wondering if you could explain exactly how I would go about loading 1080 presets into the SRX Orchestra plugin, since they apparently contain the same waveforms/synthesis engine. Desmond?

You need the preset bin file/s from the 1080 plugin, and you need to modify the header bytes of each using a hex editor, as each plugin looks for a specific header to determine what files to load. So you'll need to change "PG-JV1080" in the header to "PG-NEX01".

Now the SRX Orchestra will load that bin file, containing the 1080 presets (as all the internal 1080 waves are in all of the SRX plugins).

[PlanetEarth]

Welp, this explains some things...but it does not make me happy.

I had grabbed the JV-1080 and the XV-5080 as two "freebies" I got from Roland Cloud -- before I knew they were basically the same under the GUI. I had reasons for wanting both (or so I thought at the time), but when I started to edit some of the presets recently, I noticed that several of the samples in XV-5080 were already in the JV-1080. Now I see that it will probably be all the samples, and I'll know why.

Desmond, I don't doubt the veracity of what you've posted about the RC plug-ins being basically the same, but may I ask where you got this info? I've been interested in how the plug-ins compared to the original hardware for some time, and I've just now gotten around to comparing them. I'd like to read more about why Roland did this. I'd also like to compare it to the info I've gathered on Korg and E-MU when they started to make plug-ins of their hardware, and the "compromises" they made.

Thanks!

Steve

Also, your mu:zines site is a great resource! I've donated to it, and encouraged others to, and Ben has been very helpful on Gearspace.com. Keep up the great work!

[muzines]

Desmond, I don't doubt the veracity of what you've posted about the RC plug-ins being basically the same, but may I ask where you got this info?

Well, I did implement a convertor program to import JV-1080 sysex to all the plugins file formats (including PCM lookup tables etc), and also have 5080 convertor code here, and have a XV-5080 hardware unit here, so I've literally gone byte by byte into those machines way down into the depths of the MFX algorithms. The plugin file formats are identical and exchangeable if you edit the header as mentioned above, and the internal parameter layout follows the XV-5080/Fantom data as documented in the sysex spec published by Roland. The first, JV-1080 plugin was never an *actual* 1080, it was always a 5080/Fantom-derived instrument. My code does a better job of converting JV-1080 sysex to the plugin/5080 than Roland's own in the 5080 - they got a bit lazy in the difficult places. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about...

But you can look for yourself, as you have both plugins - they are the same, just a different skin, and different factory banks. The PCM and effects are identical (the plugin is based on the Fantom's spec, which is more or less an XV-5080 (itself, an upgrade from the original JV series), with some slight MFX changes).

I'd like to read more about why Roland did this.

It's a subscription service - the more plugins they have, the more "value" for your subscription. This way they break it out into 10 different plugins, rather than just one. That's pretty much all the reason I can see. Marketing, as already mentioned!

(Why else did they take the ZenCore JD-800 module from Zenology, and make a separate instrument with the exact same ZenCore engine and a different gui, other than it looks nice to have an *actual* JD-800 plugin rather than an expansion inside of Zenology, and offers more value to bring people onto the subscription? It's all marketing to keep the catalog expanding, and those ZenCore plugin versions, and the JV/XV/SRX plugins are quick wins to make more plugins without having to make something completely new from scratch.)

Also, your mu:zines site is a great resource! I've donated to it, and encouraged others to, and Ben has been very helpful on Gearspace.com. Keep up the great work!

Thanks! I'm glad people are enjoying it, and all support and feedback I receive is much appreciated, and helps to keep me powering through it!

(I like to think I'm helpful everywhere btw - at least I try to be - but I'll take those two... )

[PlanetEarth]

Desmond, I don't doubt the veracity of what you've posted about the RC plug-ins being basically the same, but may I ask where you got this info?

Well, I did implement a convertor program to import JV-1080 sysex to all the plugins file formats (including PCM lookup tables etc), and also have 5080 convertor code here, and have a XV-5080 hardware unit here, so I've literally gone byte by byte into those machines way down into the depths of the MFX algorithms. The plugin file formats are identical and exchangeable if you edit the header as mentioned above, and the internal parameter layout follows the XV-5080/Fantom data as documented in the sysex spec published by Roland. The first, JV-1080 plugin was never an *actual* 1080, it was always a 5080/Fantom-derived instrument. My code does a better job of converting JV-1080 sysex to the plugin/5080 than Roland's own in the 5080 - they got a bit lazy in the difficult places. So it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about...

But you can look for yourself, as you have both plugins - they are the same, just a different skin, and different factory banks. The PCM and effects are identical (the plugin is based on the Fantom's spec, which is more or less an XV-5080 (itself, an upgrade from the original JV series), with some slight MFX changes).

Ugh. I didn't know about the convertor program, though I'd love to get a copy, if you don't mind pointing me to it! But yeah, the rest of it definitely suggests you know what you're talking about. This is really...disappointing, though. I had hoped for some "authenticity" — as much as one can expect from a plug-in, anyway. Knowing that the JV-1080 is not only the XV-5080, but it also has code from a synth that came out after the 5080 is...well, disappointing.

Thanks! I'm glad people are enjoying it, and all support and feedback I receive is much appreciated, and helps to keep me powering through it!

(I like to think I'm helpful everywhere btw - at least I try to be - but I'll take those two... )

I don't know where else you post; I've only seen the posts on Gearspace (which I assume are you or the mysterious "Ben") and this one. But I'm sure you're helpful wherever you post, and I, for one, appreciate your efforts!

Steve

[muzines]

Ugh. I didn't know about the convertor program, though I'd love to get a copy, if you don't mind pointing me to it!

Links to my stuff are in my sig, but here's the direct page to the JV1080 and D50 conversion tools:

http://www.difficultaudio.com/roland/

But yeah, the rest of it definitely suggests you know what you're talking about. This is really...disappointing, though. I had hoped for some "authenticity" — as much as one can expect from a plug-in, anyway. Knowing that the JV-1080 is not only the XV-5080, but it also has code from a synth that came out after the 5080 is...well, disappointing.

Well, it *is* authentic, it just depends on what you're comparing it to!

Apart from some small FX differences, I couldn't tell the difference between the 1080/5080 plugin, and my real 5080 connected via digital I/O. The XV-5080 is a continuation of the engine from the 1080, it's just higher quality, better samples, stereo waveforms, more FX and so on etc. It's a "better" 1080, really.

The Fantom is the same 5080 engine too, with some FX tweaks but it's all compatible. JV-1080/2080 patches will load into the 5080 and Fantom - really, that JV/XV engine, which reached it's pinnacle on the 5080 and Fantom, is the same PCM engine Roland have been using up until the more recent "ZenCore" stuff. The only differences are that the Fantom contains some additional engines over the 5080 that also aren't in the plugin (the Supernatural stuff etc), and the only really engine changes are tweaks to the MFX algorithms - it's all the same code, but the Fantom has (from memory, I can't list the exact differences offhand) some extensions to some of the algorithms, and a few new algorithms - but it's all the same code. So Fantom is basically an XV-5080 + Supernatural engines and possibly some other stuff I'm forgetting right now.

I don't have a JV-1080 to compare, but the general consensus I've seen, for those who love the sound of the 1080, the plugin is more hifi and doesn't have the same grunge (as it's a later engine).

Anyway, as an XV-5080 owner, the plugin is as authentic to that as it can be, imo, apart from the things the hardware does that the plugin doesn't (basically, performance/multi modes, and all the (optional) sampling stuff. Well, and GM, but no one cares about that! ). Like I say, I literally couldn't tell the difference over digital I/O. Although the analog outputs on the XV-5080 are very nice sounding, and a little bit warmer - less accurate to the source maybe, but warmer and perhaps preferable in tone, depending on your tastes. At least you have the choice on the hardware.

It's *not* exactly authentic to the 1080 though, if you're very particular about it's exact character and the exact FX algorithms, but generally does the same things, and it's easier to dirty up the vibe than it is to clean up a grungy synth.

Anyway, hope that helps. I think the plugins are great by the way, but if I was you, I'd load the 1080 presets into a bank for the 5080 plugin (or import the 1080 presets from a sysex file), so you can still use them, then swap your key of the JV1080 to a different plugin. Roland let you swap which plugins you're getting as freebies on their subscription service.

I don't know where else you post; I've only seen the posts on Gearspace (which I assume are you or the mysterious "Ben") and this one. But I'm sure you're helpful wherever you post, and I, for one, appreciate your efforts!

Thanks Steve! (I'm not *that* mysterious... )

[PlanetEarth]

Ugh. I didn't know about the convertor program, though I'd love to get a copy, if you don't mind pointing me to it!

Links to my stuff are in my sig, but here's the direct page to the JV1080 and D50 conversion tools:

http://www.difficultaudio.com/roland/

Thanks! I'll be trying this out ASAP!

Well, it *is* authentic, it just depends on what you're comparing it to!

That's just it — I had wanted the "grunge" and "wooliness" of the original JV-1080's analog outputs in the JV-1080 plug-in, and the cleaner outputs of the XV-5080 hardware in that plug-in. Kind of like what Korg did with their Triton Extreme plug-in, where you can get subtly different sounds depending upon which output option (or Triton "model") you choose.

I realize most people probably would have wanted the cleanest sound they could get from the 1080 plug-in, just as they would have from the original hardware. When I started the project I'm using the 1080 and 5080 in, I didn't realize much of the "sound" was due to the converters, amps, and outputs. I thought it was more an issue of the sample quality and quantity (e.g., multi-samples or stereo samples where appropriate). And sure, I can "dirty up the vibe" a bit, but without the original hardware as a guide, I'm not 100% sure what I should do to the sound...so I'll probably just leave it as it is.

It's difficult to explain, but it's not that I want the JV-1080 plug-in to sound "bad", it's just that I wanted the plug-in to sound authentic. I'm sure I'll live, though. Thanks for all your help!

Steve

[muzines]

It's difficult to explain, but it's not that I want the JV-1080 plug-in to sound "bad", it's just that I wanted the plug-in to sound authentic. I'm sure I'll live, though. Thanks for all your help!

Yep, I totally get it, and it's not an unreasonable expectation. I agree with your comments about the output stages too.

At the moment, the only way to absolute authenticity to the JV1080 is to pick up a hardware module (which like most of this stuff, you could barely give away not that long ago, but now anything hardware seems to be increasing in price, for some reason. Even 90s rack gear.)

You're welcome!

[Zeno]

BTW, the (now-discontinued) Anthology series seemed to include the old JV-Orchestral expansion card waveforms and patches, in a series called Anthology Orchestra. Those Anthology libraries loaded into the (also discontinued!) Concerto plugin.

Roland allowed those all as free download once they were discontinued, apparently, but I can't find them on the site or on RolandCloud now....

[PlanetEarth]

Yes, as I understand it, they removed the Anthology and Concerto stuff in February, around the time they released v2.0 of their Legendary series. There was some talk about it on KVR, with suggestions to "grab whatever you can!" while the links still worked.

(Sorry for the late reply, I didn't get notified about this. I only saw your post when I came here to get a helpful response you gave me about the XV-5080/JV-1080 waveforms and patches...to help someone on KVR. You will probably already have seen it there by the time you read this. )

Steve

[muzines]

Roland allowed those all as free download once they were discontinued, apparently, but I can't find them on the site or on RolandCloud now....

I can tell you they really weren't worth bothering with. They claimed they were "deep-sampled" but it was two or maybe three velocity levels tops, and really they were the source synths hastily autosampled out (and not that well looped) to bulk up the included instruments to make the subscription look more attractive.

They weren't done by Roland, so once Roland severed their ties with the company they initially partnered with for the cloud service, those were unsupported and then removed from Roland's product offerings.