Applying classical forms to new music

[Arpangel]

I’m looking forward to your "Switched On" version of "Appalachian Spring"



("Switched On" being a phrase used by Wendy Carlos to describe her electronic renditions of Bach's works, and is used as a quote only in the context of this post)

[Ben Asaro]

I’m looking forward to your "Switched On" version of "Appalachian Spring"

LOL
Though I am following a classical form, this is going to sound a lot more like Krautrock than Bach!

[Arpangel]

It is strange though, a lot of classical works do sound better on the synthesiser to me, sometimes it’s because you can really go to town on making the lines stand out from each other, so you can hear the counterpoint really clearly.
I’ve got an old vinyl album of Erik Satie played by a small string ensemble and a Moog Modular, it’s so beautiful, totally beyond.

[Ben Asaro]

3 of the 8 melody lines for the first subject are pretty much done! Looks like this will be in D Major. If anyone more familiar with the rules of counterpoint could have a look, I think I've followed the rules correctly!

[GilesAnt]

If you are aiming for strict counterpoint you ,might want to change the parallel octaves in bar 1 between VCO2 and 3 (D to E). But things like this depend on the bigger picture sometimes.

[Ben Asaro]

If you are aiming for strict counterpoint you ,might want to change the parallel octaves in bar 1 between VCO2 and 3 (D to E). But things like this depend on the bigger picture sometimes.

Thanks for pointing that out, I did notice the parallel octave, and it may change as the other voices come online. I am not trying to create a strict counterpoint but once the voice count starts getting high it's alway nice to know that I'm following most of the standards for harmonization.

Nice catch, though, and I appreciate your looking it over!

[merlyn]

If you were going to give this to someone to play you could lay out the rhythms in a way that is easier to read. In the first bar of VCO 1 the fourth beat is a rest, a quarter note rest on the fourth beat would make that obvious. I would find the first bar easier to read if the third beat was a sixteenth note, a sixteenth rest, an eighth rest then a quarter note rest on the fourth beat. That way where the beats fall is more obvious.

[Ben Asaro]

If you were going to give this to someone to play you could lay out the rhythms in a way that is easier to read. In the first bar of VCO 1 the fourth beat is a rest, a quarter note rest on the fourth beat would make that obvious. I would find the first bar easier to read if the third beat was a sixteenth note, a sixteenth rest, an eighth rest then a quarter note rest on the fourth beat. That way where the beats fall is more obvious.

Thanks for reading it over and for the pointers! This is not going to be read by anyone, it's just my way of writing when I'm away from my sequencers.

[RichardT]

3 of the 8 melody lines for the first subject are pretty much done! Looks like this will be in D Major. If anyone more familiar with the rules of counterpoint could have a look, I think I've followed the rules correctly!

I think you’ve got more ‘coincident ‘ notes than would be normal, such as the first D. But that’s not really against any rules.

[Ben Asaro]

3 of the 8 melody lines for the first subject are pretty much done! Looks like this will be in D Major. If anyone more familiar with the rules of counterpoint could have a look, I think I've followed the rules correctly!

I think you’ve got more ‘coincident ‘ notes than would be normal, such as the first D. But that’s not really against any rules.

Thanks for taking a look! It's been going through metamorphosis all day, thanks to everyone for their valued input!

[Ben Asaro]

Major revision to the first statement. Very happy with this one, just have to work on how it will be developed, and start writing the second statement!

[Ben Asaro]

Here's a quick audio export from Notion of the first subject. I'll be transcribing this onto my modular over the course of the weekend. The one thing that I cannot notate is the Subharmonicon, I don't know if you could notate it if you wanted to, it's more of an improvisational instrument. But here are the melodies as laid out in the above photo:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17Pr6l3 ... sp=sharing

As a side note: if anyone is looking for a really good music notation app for iPad, I can strongly recommend Notion by Presonus. The instruments sound surprsingly good, it's very intuitive to use and supports full export options: image, PDF, WAV, MP3, MIDI, etc. For only $15 it packs a LOT of bang for the buck!

[Ben Asaro]

I'm pretty happy with what I have of the first movement thus far, https://drive.google.com/file/d/18vfvWM ... sp=sharing.

This is the four 'string' voices, kick, snare, and hihat. Still have a lot more voices to work in!

[Ben Asaro]

Today’s update: this is going to need some work!

I think that my main challenge is due to the core nature of both step sequencers and modular synths: you have a default length of 1 measure and a pulse of 4. This makes it very easy to have simple lines that repeat ad infinitum but more difficult to have something that evolves over time. I could go the generative route, but that defeats the purpose of making this a composition (ie, something that can be repeated). I think that the solution will involve polymeters, hocketing, and panning in order to keep it both musically and sonically interesting.

So back to the drawing board today!

More rambling to follow!

[Ben Asaro]

9 hours later lol ... Finally have something I can sink my teeth into!



The piece has a kind of Philip Glass-vibe going on now, it's very polyrhythmic! But the voices interlock great. Just using two VCOs of the Quadnic right now and Oscillator 1 in the Subharmonicon. The drums and Subharmonicon are playing in 4/4; one voice of the Quadnic is in 11/16 and the other one is in 6/16. It sounds pretty trippy!

[Ben Asaro]

Here's where we're at thus far: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l1PWXK ... sp=sharing

[GilesAnt]

You have given us three different versions of your first subject, but essentially you have written one bar of music. I think you need to map out your vision a bit here.

[Ben Asaro]

You have given us three different versions of your first subject, but essentially you have written one bar of music. I think you need to map out your vision a bit here.

Thanks for posting. I'm not expecting everyone, or anyone, to understand how I'm going about this. In the OP I said

I am going to use this thread for sharing my ideas and processes, thinking out loud, and hopefully get educated and inspired by the good folks on this forum

and I will continue to do that. For me, this is how I get my thoughts organized. I know it probably seems rather random and entirely too granular, and as I said in the OP, I'm not entirely sure I will be able to bring this to completion.
But I'm not going to stop thinking out loud here and sharing my process, unless that's in violation of forum rules.

[GilesAnt]

I'm not trying to discourage you - quite the reverse. But I am suggesting that if you have ambitions to write some music of 'classical' proportions/form then you need to approach it with some vision.

If you want to build a structure, you don't just place one brick, stand back and admire, and then think about what to do next. You should already (as a minimum) be thinking of both 1st and 2nd subjects as they will need to be complementary, contrasting, or whatever, to build the tension and interest in your composition.

You say you are looking to be educated and inspired, so for what it is worth this is my initial suggestion.

[Arpangel]

I don’t think a "vision" is necessary at all, some composers have one, others don’t, and lots in between.
I started out in the classical world, and ended up where I am now (where am I?)
I used to carry a manuscript book around with me, just like we carry handy recorders these days, just to jot down ideas, sometimes these "subjects" would go on to be part of bigger things, but sometimes I’d "stand back and admire" and they’d be finished little pieces.
I have never started out knowing how something will progress, or finish, I have never had that "vision" a lot of people talk about, and I’d suspect we’d be very surprised if a lot of the great composers didn’t have one either.
I never thought that the first note I wrote on that paper would turn into a 2 minute piano piece, or a 40 minute epic, each note builds on what went before, and sometimes things unfold we would never have predicted.

[GilesAnt]

I never thought that the first note I wrote on that paper would turn into a 2 minute piano piece, or a 40 minute epic, each note builds on what went before, and sometimes things unfold we would never have predicted.

He is planning to write something in sonata form, classical in scale if not in style. This does need some thinking about in my view. The interplay of subjects, their development, harmonic tension etc. will all need at least some outline design. Sonata form looks simple at one level, but many composers have grappled with this, not always successfully. The form isn't intended as a straightjacket, but a model that can help the composer.

For smaller pieces where no specific form or architecture is envisaged then a bar by bar approach may of course yield excellent results - but that's not his aim (as I understand it from his posts).

From my readings, many of the great composers did indeed work with a vision in mind. Schubert, Mozart and others would carry more or less completed works in their head, and just needed time to write them down. Others would sweat and toil so the music matched their vision. Similarly Wagner could have hardly tackled his operas on a bar by bar basis.

The equivalent might be of an architect who sketches out a building without getting too involved in the details at the start. If he just piles one brick on top of the other with no plan it is unlikely that he will get good results.

Having a crack at something on a classical scale is brave, and I wish Ben all the best. I'm sure he will have fun having a go, even if all else fails.

[Arpangel]

I never thought that the first note I wrote on that paper would turn into a 2 minute piano piece, or a 40 minute epic, each note builds on what went before, and sometimes things unfold we would never have predicted.

He is planning to write something in sonata form, classical in scale if not in style. This does need some thinking about in my view. The interplay of subjects, their development, harmonic tension etc. will all need at least some outline design. Sonata form looks simple at one level, but many composers have grappled with this, not always successfully. The form isn't intended as a straightjacket, but a model that can help the composer.

For smaller pieces where no specific form or architecture is envisaged then a bar by bar approach may of course yield excellent results - but that's not his aim (as I understand it from his posts).

From my readings, many of the great composers did indeed work with a vision in mind. Schubert, Mozart and others would carry more or less completed works in their head, and just needed time to write them down. Others would sweat and toil so the music matched their vision. Similarly Wagner could have hardly tackled his operas on a bar by bar basis.

The equivalent might be of an architect who sketches out a building without getting too involved in the details at the start. If he just piles one brick on top of the other with no plan it is unlikely that he will get good results.

Having a crack at something on a classical scale is brave, and I wish Ben all the best. I'm sure he will have fun having a go, even if all else fails.

Fair enough, but I think that’s a lot to do with why I left the classical world, all its rules and regulations. I understand all about working to a discipline, and it’s produced some of the greatest music of all time, but I got seduced by Cage and Roxy Music, and I never returned.

[Martin Walker]

It's great to see that Ben is getting such positive feedback here on his grand objective, but I felt I ought to say that even at this point I'm enjoying this first 'Philip Glass' inspired output

Martin

[Arpangel]

It's great to see that Ben is getting such positive feedback here on his grand objective, but I felt I ought to say that even at this point I'm enjoying this first 'Philip Glass' inspired output

Martin

I’m liking it too, just add a bit of Eventide and you’ll have an album man.



It needs this tempo to keep up the momentum.