Help me understand about "frequency response" aspects please?

[Drew Stephenson]

The other thing to bear in mind is that a loudspeaker unit is a combination of components, and it's the combination that matters, not the individual units. Individual drivers, the cross-over, the cabinet construction and any damping, all of these have an effect on the final sound. Just replacing one component with a different one is not an effective test of that component.

[mikehende]

The Peavey horn possibly isn't well matched to the driver. A large horn like that is really better at midrange and the specs show a peak in the frequency response at 2kHz with a gradually falling response that is -5dB from the peak at 10kHz and then dropping rapidly after that. So you need to treat that as a midrange horn and add a proper high frequency horn to the system.

I used quite a bit of Peavey gear in my younger days and the HDH series were the only Peavey speakers with a vaguely decent high frequency response. The MFX sounded horrible to my ears.

You've hit the nail on the head James.

I think it finally hit me last night guys, going through all of the info I have received on horns so far. I had a pair of Peavey SP2's years ago and had gotten rid of them because while I loved how the vocals sounded coming from the horns, it just did not give enough highs. So I got rid of them and upgraded to a pair of EV Eliminator I series which had better quality but it's square shaped horn does not give the type of highs I am searching for either.

I think what I have been searching for is a horn from which I can get some vocals but also which has the highs of a super tweeter, that is what I have been searching for all this time and is why I am pinpointing the JBL 2342 horn in particular. I am hoping since it seems to be a bigger version of the JBL 2404 I might get the highs of the 2404 from that horn.

So my question to sum up this topic and issue is, is there a horn and/or driver available which fits this description please? Or if that is not available then my only option would be to get a separate super tweeter to add to a horn? This was my main reason why I started looking into understanding Specs, I was thinking that maybe a horn Driver's specs might tell me if it will give highs like a super tweeter.

If there should be a driver available for the Peavey's which will give me the highs then this would be first option.

I don't think I am alone with this as here in my neck of the woods in NY many DJ's build custom cabs with both larger horns and bullet tweeters.

[Sam Spoons]

I can't help thinking you'd be better off buying a decent pair of active speakers, say Yamaha DZR 315s, way louder than anything else in the price range and 31Hz-20kHz (-10dB points) frequency range.

BTW (and just a thought), I'm not surprised you son preferred the sound of the Peavey with the additional tweeter if the standard horns lack proper high end (as suggested). Any additional tweeter would have helped. But IMHO super tweeters are just snake oil, we adults cannot hear above 15 or 16 kHz once we have reached our 30's and even you son probably can't hear much above that so it definitely ain't 22kHz that was exciting him.

[Nazard]

Some people believe it worthwhile to reproduce 'ultrasonic' frequencies which are technically those above 20kHz

I recall some people saying that, for example if you have a frequency cut-off, then you are limiting the mixing products of various audio frequencies. I have wondered about this, sometimes, when thining about the mixing products from pipe organs' 'mixture stops' which may be quint, cornet, tierce, harmonic mixtures, etc..

Tim de Paravicini, had in the past, if I remember, commented on this.

Very sadly, Tim de Paravicini, passed away on the 17th of this month,

[mikehende]

I can't help thinking you'd be better off buying a decent pair of active speakers, say Yamaha DZR 315s, way louder than anything else in the price range and 31Hz-20kHz (-10dB points) frequency range.

Oh there you are Sam . I have had my eyes on EAW JF260 Speakers:

https://all-guidesbox.com/manual/174090 ... ons-2.html

which come very highly recommended but I don't want to make the same mistake again as I had done by upgrading from the SP2 to the EV Eliminators. So I am trying first to see if I might be able to work with the Peavey horns by changing to the actual original drivers which came with it:

https://peavey.com/manuals/80300843.pdf

I am seeing the drivers used for around $40 so I am contemplating buying just one to compare with the D220Ti side by side as first option. 2nd option would be to try the JBL 2342 if it's driver can give me the highs of the 2404 super tweeter I am thinking before trying any other speaker?

[James Perrett]

I am hoping since it seems to be a bigger version of the JBL 2404 I might get the highs of the 2404 from that horn.

It is a mistake to think that bigger is better. When it comes to high frequencies you need to match the horn characteristics to the driver and a smaller horn may be better for what you want.

However, don't get stuck in the 1970's. Modern PA speakers are far better at producing clean high frequencies than anything from the 1970's (and the Peavey stuff you mention is definitely 1970's technology - even if it was made later).

[mikehende]

It is a mistake to think that bigger is better. When it comes to high frequencies you need to match the horn characteristics to the driver and a smaller horn may be better for what you want.

However, don't get stuck in the 1970's. Modern PA speakers are far better at producing clean high frequencies than anything from the 1970's (and the Peavey stuff you mention is definitely 1970's technology - even if it was made later).

Yup, again you've nailed it! that was always my thinking. I have a friend who has one of the EAW MK series like this. one which I will try to go to him so I can listen and experiment with it:

https://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront ... pa-speaker

[Hugh Robjohns]

.... thining about the mixing products from pipe organs' 'mixture stops' which may be quint, cornet, tierce, harmonic mixtures, etc..

Yes, in theory inaudible harmonics at 25 and 27kHz could beat acoustically to produce an audible tone at 2kHz... but there is usually so little energy in such high harmonics, and so much atmospheric loss at those frequencies, that I doubt it would result in anything above the noise floor at typical listening distances.

Very sadly, Tim de Paravicini, passed away on the 17th of this month,

Oh dear. I didn't know that. Very sad.

[Sam Spoons]

Refresh my memory Mike, is this for your garage or for gigs? Those EAW's are probably very good but don't actually go very loud, and the price is eye-watering for a passive speaker for 'home' use. I'm assuming you are hoping to buy used?

If you have the kind of budget a new pair of EAW MA2326 cost plus amps (2 x stereo) and controller then I'd still advise you to go for a pair of good, modern, active/powered speakers. If it's for gigs the Yamaha's I suggested would be my choice, for a garage then Yamaha DXS12s or DXS 10s plus a sub or two would be more cost effective as you don't need the 143 dB SPL the DZR 315s can supply (and at 134dB SPL they are a lot louder than the EAWs).

[mikehende]

It's only for my small garage use Sam. Yes, fried of mine has 3 of them so won't be too costly for me to get the MK series, forgot which exact model he has stored away.

[Sam Spoons]

I can't imagine the EAWs won't be a huge step up from the Peaveys or EVs... Definitely worth a try, in your garage anything that can deliver 128dB SPL should be adequate if the sound how you want them.

[mikehende]

What I just cannot seem to get is what is it which makes a super tweeter give much more highs than a regular horn driver and why isn't there a super tweeter driver you can use on a horn?

[Drew Stephenson]

I think you just need to do some reading up on the physics of horn drivers. That will explain the properties and the limitations.

[mikehende]

Ok will check on it.

[Sam Spoons]

Wot ee sez...

But my take is that the Peavey Horn probably starts rolling off at around10kHz and is, most likely, -10dB or more by 15kHz. Taking the 5-40 kHz 'super tweeter as an example, without a suitable crossover, it is probably reproducing from, maybe as low as 1 kHz kHz but even your son can't hear the frequencies above, say, 15 kHz*.

The quoted frequency response of the 5-40 kHz tweeter should also have limits, usually 0 to -3 dB or 0 to -10 dB but that doesn't;t mean it won't reproduce anything below 5 kHz just that it won't reproduce it as loud for a given input as the frequencies within it's quoted frequency range. What you son is hearing as 'better' top end is the 1- 15 kHz range the super tweeter is reproducing added to the reduced top end the PV horn is reproducing. Basically sticking any tweeter in there in addition to the PV horn will make the top end more prominent. Whether it will sound better (rather than just louder) is entirely another matter.

* Now a cautionary note... I'm also guessing that you listen to quite a lot of loud music, and that you are 40+ years old? I'm 67 and listened to a moderate amount of loud music over the years, my hearing is pretty shot over about 12kHz, it is likely that your hearing is deteriorating at the top end (it does so simply due to the effects of getting older regardless of the loud music/noises we all encounter in day to day life). Prolonged exposure to loud music will accelerate the decline and chasing more top end to compensate will just make it happen sooner.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...and chasing more top end to compensate will just make it happen sooner.

And it will potentially alienate anyone with reasonably normal hearing who will find your 'lovely and sparkly' top end excruciating!

[mikehende]

* Now a cautionary note... I'm also guessing that you listen to quite a lot of loud music, and that you are 40+ years old? I'm 67 and listened to a moderate amount of loud music over the years, my hearing is pretty shot over about 12kHz, it is likely that your hearing is deteriorating at the top end (it does so simply due to the effects of getting older regardless of the loud music/noises we all encounter in day to day life). Prolonged exposure to loud music will accelerate the decline and chasing more top end to compensate will just make it happen sooner.

Well no, I don't like loud music, just like getting both vocals and good crisp clean highs coming from a horn which is why I prefer a horn over a tweeter but if there is no horn which can give the highs of a tweeter then.....

I am closing in on 60 btw so yes my ears might not be once it once was. I like to hear clean "wind chimes" notes coming from a horn but I guess you would get those only in audiophile speakers and not DJ speakers?

[Sam Spoons]

If you want accurate sound at moderate volume then a decent pair of HiFi or monitor speakers would probably be better, but of you like the sound off horn tweeters then accurate may not be what you need. If the EAW's don't work out I'd try to get a listen to a pair of Yamaha DXR or DSR 10" or 12"s. IIRC you already have a sub (and a Drive Rack?) so the 10"* would be ideal, DXR10's cost £699 each from Sweetwater just now. I have three for monitors in my PA rig and they sound very good for PA speakers.

12" two way speakers usually sound quite a lot better for vocals than 15", 10"s a little better still. The 'clean top end' you perceive is probably around 1-3 kHz which is where the crossover on typical two way PA speakers falls, the horn has a limit to how low it can go so the crossover is usually at around 2kHz and a 15" driver is not good at that relatively high frequency, 12" or 10" LF drivers are better so produce a 'cleaner' top end than 15" cabs.

[mikehende]

Thx yeah, a guy who has both the JF260 and MK series 12" says the JF struggles in the hf range so he prefers the MK series. I too believe in 10 or 12" for vocals/mids.

[James Perrett]

If you like the sound of horn loaded tweeters then take a look at the Tannoy dual concentric speakers. They've greatly refined the design over the years and, at one time, they were the most popular monitor in UK studios. They also sell PA versions - I know someone who uses the older Wildcat range and they sound great.

There is an awful lot of theory involved in designing horn loaded speakers which isn't necessarily obvious. This article seems to cover the horn design theory...

https://volvotreter.de/downloads/Dinsdale_Horns_1.pdf