dBFS Audio Clipping ???

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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by James Perrett »

DigitalMusicProduction wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:57 pm Assuming this information is accurate? there would need to be two different final master volume outputs, one for CD, digital downloads, and another for streaming, is this correct?

Like much of the recording information on the Internet, this isn't necessarily accurate. It may apply in certain circumstances but probably not in your case.

Do you have a way to measure LUFS? If so, how loud is your music currently if you adjust the gain to give you a true peak of -1dBFS? I'm worried that you are chasing LUFS targets that are simply inappropriate for your music.
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Mike Stranks »

Post deleted... duplicated what someone else had already said... :)
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by DigitalMusicProduction »

Do you have a way to measure LUFS? If so, how loud is your music currently

I'm worried that you are chasing LUFS targets that are simply inappropriate for your music.


Yes there is the LUFS meter in Logic, but some piano tracks only peak at -14 LUFS, but float much lower, I've tried raising the gain on the instrument channel strip volume to balance a float at -14 LUFS, but this causes clipping on the dBFS channel strip volume.

All the piano tracks on the album have been mastered to float between -18 and -10dBFS with peaks no higher then -3dBFS, however as mentioned when switching to the LUFS meter the
Tracks float much lower with some only peaking at -14 LUFS, so what to do in this case?
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by blinddrew »

There are different measures of LUFS, momentary, short-term and integrated.
The measure that streaming services are looking at is the integrated measure, this is based on the entire piece of music.
The short-term measure can be useful to look at how your loudest sections compare track to track.
I've yet to find any real use in the momentary measure, personally I ignore it.
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Wonks »

Can we assume that you are using the integrated LUFS value for the whole track, rather than the short term or instantaneous LUFS value?
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by James Perrett »

If the tracks are quiet then don't force them to be louder than they want to be. When people talk about aiming for an integrated level of -14LUFS they are normally talking about contemporary styles of music where there are few dynamics and levels are tightly controlled at all stages of the process.

I get the impression that your music doesn't fit into that category so you can safely ignore most of what you've read on the internet.
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by DigitalMusicProduction »

Wonks wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:42 pm Can we assume that you are using the integrated LUFS value for the whole track, rather than the short term or instantaneous LUFS value?

That's an excellent question, as i could of been monitoring the wrong meter? Short term over integrated, new to the concept, will check.
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by DigitalMusicProduction »

Error :think:
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Wonks »

No harm done.

Where are you once you use the integrated value?
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by DigitalMusicProduction »

After checking the LUFS loudness meter the integrated level for the piano tracks only rose to -28 LUFS, thats -14 less then the required noise level for streaming service's. However on the instrument channel strip volume the track floats between -18 and -10 dBFS, peaks no higher then -3dBFS, which seems just right for my piano music.

Both volume levels on the piano sample library and Logics instrument channel strip volume are at their maximum levels, so I'm unsure as to how to increase the integrated LUFS level to -14 as all gain levels are at their maximum.

All that said when refering back to the instrument channel strip volume all seems fine when floating between -18 and -10dBFS with peaks no higher then -3dBFS. I assume these volume levels are adequate for CD and digital downloads. The issue lies with the LUFS meter by not being able to raise the tracks to the required -14 LUFS due to all gain levels already being at there maximum.

It's been said tracks that are to loud or to quiet when uploading to streaming service's will either be turned up or down to meet the required -14 LUFS, therefore should i not just upload the album and let the streaming service alter the volume to meet their standard if necessary?
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Trying to teach this stuff via the forum is not the best way. If I were you I'd organise a couple of on-line tutorials on mastering with your own material.

I can recommend either Eddie Bazil who you can reach on this forum as Zukan , or Paul Ward who you can reach here as The Elf

Both are excellent tutors with a lot of experience and excellent feedback, and both really know their stuff.

As for just uploading and hoping for the best... all streaming services will turn loud material down, but not all will turn quieter stuff up, and since your tracks appears to be rather on the quieter side that might not work well for you!
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by blinddrew »

DigitalMusicProduction wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:27 pm After checking the LUFS loudness meter the integrated level for the piano tracks only rose to -28 LUFS, thats -14 less then the required noise level for streaming service's. However on the instrument channel strip volume the track floats between -18 and -10 dBFS, peaks no higher then -3dBFS, which seems just right for my piano music.

If that feels right for the music then it probably is.

Both volume levels on the piano sample library and Logics instrument channel strip volume are at their maximum levels, so I'm unsure as to how to increase the integrated LUFS level to -14 as all gain levels are at their maximum.

I think this is indicating that you're not fully grasping what the LUFS measure is, you're looking at gain when really you need to be looking at range.
Here are some articles, a couple quite long, that go into depth around the difference between loudness and peak normalisation:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... udness-war
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... udness-war
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... -streaming

All that said when refering back to the instrument channel strip volume all seems fine when floating between -18 and -10dBFS with peaks no higher then -3dBFS. I assume these volume levels are adequate for CD and digital downloads. The issue lies with the LUFS meter by not being able to raise the tracks to the required -14 LUFS due to all gain levels already being at there maximum.

Again, if it feels right for the music then maybe it is. Don't get hung up on targets. :)

It's been said tracks that are to loud or to quiet when uploading to streaming service's will either be turned up or down to meet the required -14 LUFS, therefore should i not just upload the album and let the streaming service alter the volume to meet their standard if necessary?

This gets complicated as not all services behave the same way. E.g. Youtube turns down but not up. Spotify turns up as well as down, but they've actually recently turned off their limiter function and have released some new user-selectable options to allow a higher LUFS.
Personally I think it's better to make those decisions myself but with a full understanding of what will happen subsequently. This site: https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/ allows you to load your track and see what different streaming services will do.

Properly understanding this is a key part of releasing music these days so it's worth taking the time to read through the articles above. :thumbup:
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Ben Asaro »

I also mentioned Loudness Penalty back in the early days of this thread ...
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

For reference I've just ran some semi-randomly selected classical piano recordings I have through the meter and came up with these stats:

Erik Satie Gymnopedie #1: Integrated Loudness = -32.7 LUFS. True Peak = -11.08dBTP

Debussy Etudes Book 1: Integrated Loudness = -18.5LUFS. True Peak = -1.75dBTP

Beethoven Sonata No23 in F minor: Integrated Loudness = -21.9LUFS. True Peak = -3.1dBTP

Food for thought, if nothing else...
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Re: dBFS Audio Clipping ???

Post by James Perrett »

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:43 pm For reference I've just ran some semi-randomly selected classical piano recordings I have through the meter and came up with these stats:

Erik Satie Gymnopedie #1: Integrated Loudness = -32.7 LUFS. True Peak = -11.08dBTP

As a point of comparison, Pyotr Godunov's version on Spotify has an integrated loudness of -27.3 and a true peak of -9.4dBTP. Philippe Entremont's version (which was at the top of the list in my search) is even quieter with an integrated loudness of -40.1LUFS and a true peak of -20.8dBTP.
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