New Korg Legacy instruments

[Eddy Deegan]

About to finish work (hurrah!).

I have been able to test polyphony a bit by editing a few sounds to have very long releases. Some sounds really don't like being used polyphonically and start breaking up after only 2 - 4 notes are ringing. These appear to be those sounds with distortion and/or more complex timbres, which makes sense. Simpler string sounds stack up with no worries at all - I got every note on the virtual keyboard sounding just fine on an analogue string patch.

I also noticed that some sounds will consume CPU once you start adding more notes. My work laptop is a Lenovo Legion 7 with an i7-10750 CPU (6 cores) running at 2.6GHz and I was able to get the Prophecy to require 20% of the available capacity with a few clicks on some edited sounds with long tails.

Others not so much. In fairness, those sounds that started ramping up the CPU requirement didn't sound very nice when played polyphonically. I suspect it's down to the various oscillator types.

[Eddy Deegan]

Here are the results of my far-from-scientific comparison of 4 patches, which are present as factory presets on both the Trinity SOLO-TRI and the Prophecy VST.

The Prophecy VST sounds broadly similar to the SOLO-TRI hardware but in this case I much prefer the real thing in terms of 'the sound'.

https://soundcloud.com/eddy-deegan/trin ... ophecy-vst

The hardware sounds more detailed, smoother and beefier to me. It certainly responds better to my playing. However on the other side of the coin, the VST offers polyphony and much easier programming.

My current conclusion is that the VST is worth the money even so. Each to their own preference of course!

[nickle15]

Thanks for posting that comparison. Both versions sounded good but I tended to prefer the hardware a touch more. It seemed to have a bit more sizzle and sounded brighter. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to compare the two!

[Eddy Deegan]

You're welcome

For a version 1.0, the VST really isn't bad at all. I'd also say in its defence that the mapping of controllers to modulations is a bit different in places in the presets which I think is the main reason for the stark difference between the 3rd pair of riffs.

The fourth pair are the closest. I did try a few other patches as well but it was mainly more of the same story.

In any case, the Prophecy VST is perfectly usable, a darn sight better than any other emulation I know of and maybe Korg will continue to enhance it.

I did a bit of research and it appears that the MOSS synthesis as implemented in the Korg Z1 involved quite a few more synthesis algorithms than the Prophecy VST does. You can start on an interesting rabbit-hole run here if you're interested and there is also a very engaging Sound On Sound review of the Z1 here.

[nickle15]

You're welcome

For a version 1.0, the VST really isn't bad at all. I'd also say in its defence that the mapping of controllers to modulations is a bit different in places in the presets which I think is the main reason for the stark difference between the 3rd pair of riffs.

The fourth pair are the closest. I did try a few other patches as well but it was mainly more of the same story.

In any case, the Prophecy VST is perfectly usable, a darn sight better than any other emulation I know of and maybe Korg will continue to enhance it.

I did a bit of research and it appears that the MOSS synthesis as implemented in the Korg Z1 involved quite a few more synthesis algorithms than the Prophecy VST does. You can start on an interesting rabbit-hole run here if you're interested and there is also a very engaging Sound On Sound review of the Z1 here.

Perfect - thanks for the links and additional info!

[Eddy Deegan]

Happy it was useful

By way of additional info to the casual passer-by, this is the description I put on the SoundCloud track linked previously in the thread:

This track contains 8 patches, 4 from the Korg Prophecy VST and 4 of the same name from the hardware SOLO-TRI card in my Korg Trinity .

There are four riffs, each of which is played twice from the same MIDI data. In each pair, the first is the softsynth and the second is the hardware.

There was no attempt to match the FX on the presets (I just used the ones they came with). I did not use any controllers other than pitchbend and aftertouch.

There has been no processing in terms of compression, EQ etc.

The first two riffs are played with the preset "Grungy", the second two with "Control Bass", the third pair with "Airworks" and the last two with "The Big One".

This is not intended to demo the capabilities of MOSS, just to contrast the hardware from 25 or so years ago against the software from today.

Listeners can draw their own conclusions!

[Guest]

Unfortunately I'm V1 so its $249, which I seem to remember was also the price from V1 to V2.

I was wrong, I can't even get an upgrade price. I have to pay full price.

Very strange as their is an upgrade price if you have the Special Collection ($149) and I have all the plugins that are in that collection!

I will email them and see what they say...

[BJG145]

That's great Eddy, thanks for doing that.

If people want a "blind test", I've uploaded an alternative version where I've applied some normalisation and shuffled the order.

https://soundcloud.com/qchord/v2-1/s-wjLhXEe0ADZ

(To recap, these are four factory patches played on a Trinity MOSS card and Prophecy VST.)

I agree with your verdict; the fourth shows the potential though, and with a bit of tweaking you could probably get them pretty close.

I did a bit of research and it appears that the MOSS synthesis as implemented in the Korg Z1 involved quite a few more synthesis algorithms than the Prophecy VST does.

Interesting; it was high on the wanted list at one point. I wonder if they might give that one the VST treatment as well. They were always a bit underappreciated I think.

[BJG145]

...the mapping of controllers to modulations is a bit different in places in the presets which I think is the main reason for the stark difference between the 3rd pair of riffs...

I'm interested in MOSS because it's Korg's version of Physical Modelling and should work nicely with breath controllers. It sounds like the hardware in the third section is responding to the expression data as "breath pressure" or "overblowing", whereas the VST seems to be interpreting it as a wide vibrato.

The Z1's keyboard is sensitive to both velocity and aftertouch, and this is complemented by 12 dedicated controls (four filter knobs and eight envelope knobs), pitch‑bend and modulation wheels, and four foot‑pedal inputs. Unfortunately, a dedicated input for a breath controller is missing. This is a shame, especially when you consider how many wind instruments the Z1 seeks to emulate.

(The Z1 trumpet at 0.26 in this MP3 shows the potential of MOSS with a breath controller, as a purely synthesised sound reacting to pressure...no samples here AFAIK.)

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Thanks for doing that Eddie, very useful. It's a shame they didn't get the modulation or the effects (especially reverb) to match. The flute patch sounds quite silly on the VST, it's awesome on the hardware. It sounds just like that loaded in to my Trinity Rack MOSS (there's a Korg forum with the patches translated). Another reason to keep the hardware for another while yet. Maybe they need to get the original programmers on board such as Drew Schlesinger and Wiff. Although Drew gave it the thumbs up, he likes the UI and how clear the extensive modulation is. That's a very big plus over the Trinity Rack.

[BJG145]

It's a shame they didn't get the modulation or the effects (especially reverb) to match. The flute patch sounds quite silly on the VST, it's awesome on the hardware.

Is that the "Airworks" patch...? I just tried downloading the demo to see what it would sound like with breath pressure on the EWI. I didn't get close though.

https://soundcloud.com/qchord/airworks/s-NmF6yugEryR



You'll see that the UI has three wheels at the lower left. "Wheel 2" seems to control vibrato, and I think the expression data is probably driving that on the demo above. I reckon breath pressure should be set to drive "Wheel 3" instead. With that, I can hear a slight boost in the upper frequencies, but nothing like the octave switching in the hardware version.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Did you do that on the VST? That's certainly an improvement. The over-blowing effect is one of the nicest things about that model.

[Eddy Deegan]

When I did it I was using aftertouch as the modulation source as that's the way it is on the SOLO-TRI. It does seem slightly odd to me that they'd implement that patch on the VST so much less usefully but it may well be possible to reprogram it. Maybe it was like that on the Prophecy hardware as well but I've no idea as I never owned one.

I avoided use of controllers other than pitchbend and aftertouch as the mapping from the Trinity physical joystick and ribbon is rather different to the mappings on the virtual Prophecy.

[forumuser909788]

Hi,
A note to Eddy, if you haven't found it yet, there is a hold function in the program voice settings in the FX section.

Just wondered if anyone is having problems with the log (wheel 3). I am controlling the software with a hardware Prophecy and it all works fine in standalone mode. When I use it in Reason the log only responds when I move it away from me, not when I move it towards me and the ribbon doesn't work. It all works with mouse control.

I spent a couple of hours trying to sort it out and failed. I don't know if it's an issue with the VST or Reason. I'm a hardened midi user and all of the transmit / receive settings match.

If anyone is having the same issue in another DAW then I shall get in touch with Korg about it. I have already asked them if there is going to be any way of transferring sounds from the software into the hardware as that seems such an obvious omission.

If anyone out there is controlling the VST with a hardware Prof then I would love to hear if you have had a similar problem.

[Eddy Deegan]

A note to Eddy, if you haven't found it yet, there is a hold function in the program voice settings in the FX section.

So there is! I missed that. Thank you, and nice first post

If anyone out there is controlling the VST with a hardware Prof then I would love to hear if you have had a similar problem.

I was controlling it with the joystick on my Trinity which is spring-loaded to the centre point. Pushing the joystick generates CC#1 (normal modulation wheel) and pulling it generates CC#2 (breath controller).

I haven't used the VST in Reason, only in Studio One.

By default, CC#1 maps inversely to negative Y values on wheel 3 in the VST (ie: as you increase the CC values, wheel 3 moves 'down' from centre). I don't know what CC is required to move wheel 3 up though.

You can modify the MIDI controller mappings in the VST by accessing the global settings (via the little hamburger icon to the right of the preset name):

Through this I was able to assign a controller but this maps to the full range of movement on wheel 3 and you need a centre-sprung controller if you want to maintain the central default position of wheel 3 (if that makes sense). Also, assuming you're using a 7-bit controller then wheel 3 will most likely move in steps of 2 so you'll lose some of the range of expression (which may audible in certain situations).

As wheel 3 has a Y range from -127 to +127 I agree it's strange that there aren't two CCs configurable for it, one for positive and one for negative, especially as it seems likely that the default mapping is for two controllers.

[forumuser909788]

Thanks for the info Eddy. I got a reply from Korg, saying that they have no plans to make sounds backwards compatible with the hardware.

I replied mentioning this wheel 3 problem. It just seems weird that you can define 2 controllers in the Arp page but only 1 in the global settings.

Reason can be a bit weird when it comes to controllers anyway. I shall post when I get a reply from Korg.

[BJG145]

For info, wheel 3 seemed to be driven by breath pressure on the EWI quite naturally.

[BJG145]

OK, so...just taking another look at this. Breath pressure on the EWI drives wheel 3 by default, moving from centre upwards, and I'm pretty sure this is the "overblowing" mechanism, though even with the wheel moving fully upwards the overblowing sounds nothing like the hardware on "Airworks". It's very subtle. (Assuming that the hardware patch was "Airworks".)

Here's the readout from MidiOx showing what the EWI is sending when I vary breath pressure.



*edit*

Ignore the aftertouch, I've turned that off now, and the Breath CC moves wheel 3 on everything.

(If the strange vibrato patch was Airworks, and aftertouch is driving wheel 2, I'd be interested to hear the result if it could be remapped to drive wheel 3 upwards instead.)

[Eddy Deegan]

Interesting; the B0 02 (Breath) CC messages were what I saw coming from the Trinity as well but they didn't move wheel 3 in the VST in Studio One.

I'll have another poke around at it later tonight or tomorrow.

Oh, yes, it was Airworks by the way.

[forumuser909788]

Hi.

Having spent ages trying to figure out why Airworks didn't match I have realised that the pitch modulation is completely wrong on both the Reed and Brass models.

Applying any pitch mod just sounds like a standard oscillator, rather than introducing all of the harmonic changes of overblowing etc that you get on the hardware.

I also did loads of tests on the controllers, making sure that it wasn't me or Reason at fault. I can't get the log Dir - to work properly in Reason, although it works fine as a standalone.

I definitely think that Korg have messed up on the implementation of the log, hence only one Wheel 3 controller in the Global page. I let them know earlier. I shall get back in touch with my thoughts on the pitch mod and post when I hear something.

This would explain why some of my more industrial sounds, based on the physical models, are just silent in the software. I haven't checked the plucked string model yet. Time for my nap!