The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

[merseymale]

Hi!

Not sure if this is the right forum for this question but here goes!

I’m in a much smaller and more modest situation, these days but I really liked recording live drums to my productions.

I feel I am quite experienced at recording on various mediums and yet I now find myself suddenly clueless of an important fundamental…

I’m alright at adding Hi-Hats & percussion, etc & still enjoy playing “kit Drums” and I do this by using Piezos to record clicks/pulses for my Kick & Snare on separate Channels of my zoom multitracker & then connect the output of these to the Trigger Inputs of an Alesis DM10 ‘drum brain’ & record the output of that back into the Zoom at the same time on separate channels So that I can record over the original pulse/clicks and eventually put the whole thing into a DAW on my PC

This is all well and good but it is finicky and I can’t help thinking that there is a better way of doing it but WHAT?

I’m stuck with the sounds that are on the Alesis & also with its erratic triggering with this convoluted set up and I’m keen to streamline all this without much expense…

Has anyone any opinions or advice, please?

[forumuser931182]

Can’t you just record the live midi out from the Alesis straight to your daw then use any software drum module to create the sounds.
Also doesn’t the Alesis have the ability to load new drum samples ( if you’re sick of the current sounds ).
Maybe you need to get some slightly more professional drum triggers if you’re finding your homemade ones a bit erratic.

[N i g e l]

Could you go straight to DAW & use a drum replacement VST ?

[BJG145]

^^^

1) You have piezos to record triggers for kick and snare. Are these proper drum triggers, or just a simple DIY approach...? You say that the triggering is erratic. I'd prefer a proper pad and kick trigger myself.

2) It sounds like you're recording the trigger pulses on a Zoom, then playing them back into the Alesis and recording the drum output of that back into the Zoom, then copying that into the DAW. Why not simply run the triggers into the Alesis, connect the Alesis into the DAW via MIDI, and record a MIDI track live, directly...? You might want to monitor from the audio output on the Alesis for zero latency, but once the MIDI is in the DAW there's a wealth of great drum sounds available from different sample libraries.

[merseymale]

Can’t you just record the live midi out from the Alesis straight to your daw then use any software drum module to create the sounds.
Also doesn’t the Alesis have the ability to load new drum samples ( if you’re sick of the current sounds ).
Maybe you need to get some slightly more professional drum triggers if you’re finding your homemade ones a bit erratic.

I’m afraid I don’t know how to record “live MIDI out”(pitiful I know!!) & also that would mean not using the Zoom L12 which would mean a bigger upheaval in my hovel(:oops:)moving drums to PC or Vice Versa

The Alesis is stuck with the samples it has, alas.
… They are good samples I have to admit but also with the triggering shenanigans I still want to use something a bit different somehow

Thanks For your comments though
I do appreciate them

[merseymale]

Could you go straight to DAW & use a drum replacement VST ?

Not sure how & also it would involve moving drums &/or PC (&concern neighbours..?)

Thanks for your thoughts, though

[merseymale]

^^^
“You have piezos to record triggers for kick and snare. Are these proper drum triggers, or just a simple DIY approach...?”
They are somewhat professional but HAVE been repaired
They’re not so much erratic as in ‘sometimes triggering sometimes not’ or mistriggering or whatever it’s more a case of afterwards some samples are way louder than others/sometimes they follow dynamics and sometimes not and I have to ‘repair’ these in my DAW
Doable but a pain!

“sounds like you're recording the trigger pulses on a Zoom, then playing them back into the Alesis and recording the drum output of that back into the Zoom, then copying that into the DAW”
That’s exactly right

“Why not simply run the triggers into the Alesis, connect the Alesis into the DAW via MIDI, and record a MIDI track live, directly...?”
There are a few reasons. Firstly I have the percussion etc in an attic-space And have been at great pains to “soundproof” this so as not to annoy others (I’m in a new situation)And it’s more convenient to ferry a small zoom L20 between my music location and my PC.

Also I’ve not been able to connect the zoom via USB …previously I have Stuck with an Akai DPS But swapped it for the zoom and a lot of my experience is kind of “oldschool”!

“…once the MIDI is in the DAW there's a wealth of great drum sounds available from different sample libraries”
I suppose I need to get my ‘head round’ MIDI!!

Is there any tuition video or anything with a explain midi in a door and how to use sample libraries? My experience of sample libraries has been basically a CD of individual ‘hits’ but how those bits get grafted ont MIDI data is a bit beyond me…

I suppose I’ve learned what I do by recording of the bands and when a new situation/problem rises its head I deal with it there and then and learn from that during and afterwards and it’s just I’ve never had anyone really come up and asked me to record anything with MIDI before.

As for my own stuff, I don’t have the cash/space to use a drum kit & so went with what I still have at hand -namely what I’ve been using to keep my drum chops up (practice pads)& Cymbals and snares

[merseymale]

It’s really encouraging to find people leaving Advice for my question and I thank you all again

But I suppose the question I’m trying to ask is “how can I take the clicks and pulses that I recorded while performing with Acoustic Cymbals, etc into the DAW, along with the ‘real’ instruments & turn those clicks & pops into MIDI data?”
Once I know how to do that (I am assuming the first part of that question is that I record them and put them into the DAW Just like I’ve always done with the other elements) the final question I have to ask is “ how do I turn midi data into Drum Samples or VSTi or whatever..?”

[Drew Stephenson]

Not sure if you've mentioned what DAW you're on, in essence:
1) figure out how to get midi out from your Alesis, either as a live stream to connect to a midi in on your interface, or as a recorded midi file (is that possible?)
2) connect the midi out on the alesis to midi in on your interface (or import the recorded midi file).
3) create a new midi track in your daw and set that to point at the midi input on your interface.
4) hit record and play your thing (or load the recorded midi file to this track).
5) insert a drum VSTi into the first plugin slot for that channel. Manda Powerdrummer is a good free/donationware option.
6) profit!
Sorry wrong meme.
6) listen to what comes back.

[merseymale]

Not sure if you've mentioned what DAW you're on, in essence:
1) figure out how to get midi out from your Alesis, either as a live stream to connect to a midi in on your interface, or as a recorded midi file (is that possible?)
2) connect the midi out on the alesis to midi in on your interface (or import the recorded midi file).
3) create a new midi track in your daw and set that to point at the midi input on your interface.
4) hit record and play your thing (or load the recorded midi file to this track).
5) insert a drum VSTi into the first plugin slot for that channel. Manda Powerdrummer is a good free/donationware option.
6) profit!
Sorry wrong meme.
6) listen to what comes back.

Thanks for taking the time to do this but just some thoughts I’d like to add, if that’s okay…

0) REAPER by CockOs
1) I understand this but once I do find out how to do that then I am either dragging a PC into my attic (and associated paraphernalia like monitor) or dragging down acoustic percussion to my PC and annoying the neighbours… The set up I have described previously has been to avoid both those problems but it’s the associated “teething troubles“ that I’m trying to sort out (and learn some much needed midi basics while I’m at it?!)
2)
3) a Good Friend (thanx Pinky!) sent me this link:

https://youtu.be/G8D2jEhbN7Y

…it Certainly seems like this would be the right track and I’m going to try it as a solution to my problem but assuming that I manage to generate MIDI data from the clicks and pops I record onto an audio channel, does anyone have any advice/info/videolink describing how to utilise a drum library rather than a organ sound, as in the video, please?
4)
5)now THIS is where I’m seriously deficient!
I’ve learnt my, a-hem, ‘craft’ by recording local bands over the decades and when I knew problem arose I would deal with it “on the fly“ and later research it for next time and simply put no one has ever come to me with any midi situation or sample situation (Liverpool is a bit of a rock town I suppose ) so I’m really at a loss…
6)

[BJG145]

Do you have an audio interface, and if so, what kind is it...?

The first thing you need is some way of getting MIDI data into your PC. This could be via MIDI connectors on an audio interface, a dedicated MIDI interface, or a MIDI/USB cable.

If you want to keep your drums and computer separate, there are various options. Maybe you could rig up a long MIDI connection or capture the MIDI data on a different device you might have. I don't think anyone would recommend recording the triggers as audio though.

PS forget audio-to-MIDI conversion for now, it's a flaky solution to a problem you don't have.

[merseymale]

Do you have an audio interface, and if so, what kind is it...?

The first thing you need is some way of getting MIDI data into your PC. This could be via MIDI connectors on an audio interface, a dedicated MIDI interface, or a MIDI/USB cable.

If you want to keep your drums and computer separate, there are various options. Maybe you could rig up a long MIDI connection or capture the MIDI data on a different device you might have. I don't think anyone would recommend recording the triggers as audio though.

PS forget audio-to-MIDI conversion for now, it's a flaky solution to a problem you don't have.

I have 2 Audiophile 24/96 SoundCards; a USB preamp by Art; an Akai DPS16 & a Zoom L12

The link I posted, above, seems to show an extensive MIDI generating facility of my DAW so I believe I could use the Audio Recording of my Pad’s clicks/triggers to generate a MIDI track but that is the extent of my knowledge

I could drill a hole in my ceding for a long enough MIDI cable(?!?!?) assuming there’ll be no timing issues but I’m still using the Zoom -which I DO understand(?) to record audio so if I’m using it anyway then do I need to record MIDI & audio separately anyhoo?

[N i g e l]

Could you go straight to DAW & use a drum replacement VST ?

Not sure how & also it would involve moving drums &/or PC (&concern neighbours..?)

Thanks for your thoughts, though

Ah, ok.

In that case you could just record your accoustic drums and clicks into the multitracker and then use the drum replacer after you transfer the files to your PC/DAW

There is plenty of choice of drum replacer VSTs so you could pick one that suits.

Heres an example of the drum replacer genre (not necessarily the one you would want) ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9leiK45zKDQ

[Drew Stephenson]

0) Ok, I use Reaper too so any track can be a midi track and we don't need to worry about that.
1) If you hit record on the Alesis, what actually gets recorded? Audio or midi data? How long a cable would you need to go from the Alesis to your PC?
2) Could you take the DPS16 upstairs, record the midi out from the Alesis into that, and then do you have any method of getting midi in to your PC?
3) audio to midi could be a red-herring here, hopefully we can avoid it. This step will depend on how / if we can actually get a midi file into your computer.
5) It's just as easy as using an organ VSTi. Seriously. Have a download of the Manda kit I mentioned. Load it onto a track with drum midi data. Watch as drums are miraculously played. You can either set it up send a stereo out and mix the kit levels within the plugin, or set it to send outputs to individual tracks for processing.

It's all coming down to how we get a midi file created. Can we record or import one or do we need to create one from a multitrack audio file?

[BJG145]

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that recording MIDI direct from a trigger is the most reliable way. Recording audio triggers or audio drums and then trying to process those is going to introduce unnecessary problems. You can do it if you have to, but you don't want to.

At the moment, you're ferrying triggers around on a portable recording device. Ferrying MIDI data around would be a step forward. Maybe you have an iPhone or a laptop or something...?

If it was me, I'd put together a quiet setup next to the computer with a rubber/mesh pad and a kick trigger or footswitch direct into the Alesis, Alesis direct into the computer via MIDI. (For a while that was my main way of recording drums, with a DM5 generating MIDI that I ran into Abbey Road.)

If I wanted to use an acoustic setup with triggers, in a different room from the computer, I'd try and rig a wired connection as a first choice, or record MIDI direct onto a different device and ferry the files as a second choice. I wouldn't record triggers. I wouldn't record drums then try and change them into other drums. There, I've said my piece.

[James Perrett]

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that recording MIDI direct from a trigger is the most reliable way. Recording audio triggers or audio drums and then trying to process those is going to introduce unnecessary problems. You can do it if you have to, but you don't want to.

It actually isn't that hard to do in Reaper because Reaper comes with a decent audio to MIDI trigger plug-in which is probably as good as the one in the Alesis module (and certainly as good as the one in the Alesis D4).

[BJG145]

It actually isn't that hard to do in Reaper because Reaper comes with a decent audio to MIDI trigger plug-in which is probably as good as the one in the Alesis module (and certainly as good as the one in the Alesis D4).

OK, but why degrade your trigger by recording it on a Zoom and playing it back?

...sorry, mmphh, mmphh

[Drew Stephenson]

Definitely the better way of doing things is by trying to get the midi file directly in Reaper somehow.

[merseymale]

Could you go straight to DAW & use a drum replacement VST ?

Not sure how & also it would involve moving drums &/or PC (&concern neighbours..?)

Thanks for your thoughts, though

Ah, ok.

In that case you could just record your accoustic drums and clicks into the multitracker and then use the drum replacer after you transfer the files to your PC/DAW

There is plenty of choice of drum replacer VSTs so you could pick one that suits.

Heres an example of the drum replacer genre (not necessarily the one you would want) ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9leiK45zKDQ

This seems a really great workaround that’s quite similar to what I’ve been doing already so maybe I should go this route?

Of course it does mean that I continue to be largely ignorant of MIDI matters BUT I’ve got so far without them already so maybe I can put that off a little longer!?

How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

[BJG145]

This seems a really great workaround that’s quite similar to what I’ve been doing already so maybe I should go this route?

Yes. Do that. I quit.

[N i g e l]

How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

[1] depending on your circumstances, Google

"the best drum replacer VST that money can buy" or

"best free drum replacement VST"

[2] read the info, watch the uTube videos & decide which is best for you or which is good enuff.

[3] download the VST that is best4U and install it in an appropriate directory and let your DAW know where it is.
[the paid for VSTs normally have a demo version that you can download and try out for a while]

I use Cakewalk but others here are keen on the excellent REAPER DAW. They will nodoubt be able to help with setup.

I will get my coat but not before saying that you need to gen up on MIDI and work towards a system that you can hear the sounds you want playing in real time and record MIDI too.

MIDI quantisation in Reaper might be of interest too

[James Perrett]

How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

Reaper comes with a few ways to do this. Two that I have used are:

JS Audio To MIDI Drum Trigger
ReaGate

which you will find in the FX Browser.

I use this mainly with the MT Power Drum Kit VSTi but you can use it with any drum sampler.

[merseymale]

0) Ok, I use Reaper too so any track can be a midi track and we don't need to worry about that.
1) If you hit record on the Alesis, what actually gets recorded? Audio or midi data? How long a cable would you need to go from the Alesis to your PC?
2) Could you take the DPS16 upstairs, record the midi out from the Alesis into that, and then do you have any method of getting midi in to your PC?
3) audio to midi could be a red-herring here, hopefully we can avoid it. This step will depend on how / if we can actually get a midi file into your computer.
5) It's just as easy as using an organ VSTi. Seriously. Have a download of the Manda kit I mentioned. Load it onto a track with drum midi data. Watch as drums are miraculously played. You can either set it up send a stereo out and mix the kit levels within the plugin, or set it to send outputs to individual tracks for processing.

It's all coming down to how we get a midi file created. Can we record or import one or do we need to create one from a multitrack audio file?

0) P H E W!!
1) actually I Don’t record anything on the Alesis DM 10 (I believe it does have some kind of sequencer or something but as I’m a drummer who owns a multitrack, I’ve just never had a use for it) I’d reckon a 12ft MIDI cable would be the shortest I could get away with if I drill a hole in my ceiling OR a 32ft one if I don’t
2) I suppose I could but it would be pretty much the same situation but I’ve got myself into now?!
Maybe the drum replacement kind of solution would be a better bet..?
3) I don’t really think there is a way of getting such a MIDI (synced with the Audio performance ) file into a computer unless we’re still talking about the 12 foot midi ceiling cable situation?
4) what happened to question four?!
5)Well I am very hopeful for that

Thank you for all this help and advice I really do appreciate it

[merseymale]

I'm going to stick to my guns and say that recording MIDI direct from a trigger is the most reliable way. Recording audio triggers or audio drums and then trying to process those is going to introduce unnecessary problems. You can do it if you have to, but you don't want to.

At the moment, you're ferrying triggers around on a portable recording device. Ferrying MIDI data around would be a step forward. Maybe you have an iPhone or a laptop or something...?

If it was me, I'd put together a quiet setup next to the computer with a rubber/mesh pad and a kick trigger or footswitch direct into the Alesis, Alesis direct into the computer via MIDI. (For a while that was my main way of recording drums, with a DM5 generating MIDI that I ran into Abbey Road.)

If I wanted to use an acoustic setup with triggers, in a different room from the computer, I'd try and rig a wired connection as a first choice, or record MIDI direct onto a different device and ferry the files as a second choice. I wouldn't record triggers. I wouldn't record drums then try and change them into other drums. There, I've said my piece.

Yep I have an iPhone -using it now to write this
but can it help in this regard?

The set up next to the computer you mention is not too dissimilar from what I’ve got in my attic space but there are unfortunately two types of noise (generally speaking) and they are airborne noise and structureborne noise

The airborne noise is Helped greatly with the mesh pads etc but the vibrations it sends to the people who live below is too much which is why it’s currently isolated & in the attic

I understand what you’re saying about recording MIDI files but how are they to be in sync with what acoustic sources I’m playing along with them?

Thanks