The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Discuss the hardware/software tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:10 pm
BJG145 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:15 pm I'm going to stick to my guns and say that recording MIDI direct from a trigger is the most reliable way. Recording audio triggers or audio drums and then trying to process those is going to introduce unnecessary problems. You can do it if you have to, but you don't want to.

It actually isn't that hard to do in Reaper because Reaper comes with a decent audio to MIDI trigger plug-in which is probably as good as the one in the Alesis module (and certainly as good as the one in the Alesis D4).

Hopefully this IS the case -incidentally, it was due to Sound on Sound starting a reaper column regularly in the magazine that finally pushed me over to it from (annoying To Me @least)Cubase so was a bit of a surprise when they stopped :think:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BJG145 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:39 pm
James Perrett wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:10 pmIt actually isn't that hard to do in Reaper because Reaper comes with a decent audio to MIDI trigger plug-in which is probably as good as the one in the Alesis module (and certainly as good as the one in the Alesis D4).

OK, but why degrade your trigger by recording it on a Zoom and playing it back?

...sorry, mmphh, mmphh :silent:

You may very well be right!
Certainly my only interest in recording it onto the Zoom L12 is purely for convenience (despite me complaining about THAT, here!) & certainly not for any audio quality as they’re merely trigger pulses, for want of a better word…
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

blinddrew wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:41 pm Definitely the better way of doing things is by trying to get the midi file directly in Reaper somehow.

:thumbup:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BJG145 wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:56 pm
merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:51 pm This seems a really great workaround that’s quite similar to what I’ve been doing already so maybe I should go this route?

Yes. Do that. I quit. :D

:lol:
Thanks for ALL your time & help -this is a GREAT forum :thumbup:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

N i g e l wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:09 pm
merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:51 pm How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

[1] depending on your circumstances, Google

"the best drum replacer VST that money can buy" or

"best free drum replacement VST"

[2] read the info, watch the uTube videos & decide which is best for you or which is good enuff.

[3] download the VST that is best4U and install it in an appropriate directory and let your DAW know where it is.
[the paid for VSTs normally have a demo version that you can download and try out for a while]

I use Cakewalk but others here are keen on the excellent REAPER DAW. They will nodoubt be able to help with setup.

I will get my coat but not before saying that you need to gen up on MIDI and work towards a system that you can hear the sounds you want playing in real time and record MIDI too.

MIDI quantisation in Reaper might be of interest too

1) :thumbup:
2) ;)
3) :clap: … you are quite right. I have largely been relying on experience alone and how I deal with what experience throws at me to learn audio things but as President Lincoln said “experience is a dear school but fools learn in no other“ -it is a bit mad that, this far into the 21st-century, I’m still so ignorant of midi matters :tongue:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:40 pm
merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:51 pm How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

Reaper comes with a few ways to do this. Two that I have used are:

JS Audio To MIDI Drum Trigger
ReaGate

which you will find in the FX Browser.

I use this mainly with the MT Power Drum Kit VSTi but you can use it with any drum sampler.

I’m to have a happily busy weekend it seems!!
Thank you so much
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by James Perrett »

If you want to record direct to Reaper then investigate the remote control web interface.

https://youtu.be/CkMAj8CpvIU

This allows you to use any device with a web browser (like a phone or tablet) to control Reaper.
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by BJG145 »

merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:48 pmI have an iPhone - using it now to write this but can it help in this regard?

...so, if you're keeping the drum side and computer side separate, I think we've narrowed it down to a few different options.

1) I'm not sure why you're currently recording the triggers on the Zoom and then playing them back. You say the triggering is a bit erratic, so it might be the triggers at fault, but I can't imagine that this extra step is helping. With your existing setup, why not remove this step by running the triggers directly into the Alesis and recording the Alesis straight onto the Zoom...?

2) James made an interesting point about the possibility of using trigger-to-MIDI conversion in Reaper instead of doing it on the Alesis. Another thing you could try would be to record the triggers on the Zoom as you're doing, but forget the Alesis. Transfer the recorded triggers straight into Reaper, load up your virtual drums, and drive them using Reaper's own trigger/MIDI system. (I don't know about that. I'm not familiar with Reaper.)

3) You could experiment with drum sample replacement as Nigel mentioned. Some systems can identify different sounds in a mix, whereas others will need them on different tracks. For instance, you could record your acoustic kick and snare on the Zoom, no triggers involved, run them into something like SD3, and replace those sounds directly with others. (It's not a cheap piece of software, though it's very good...just an example.) How well this works depends on the complexity of the playing. I've found it pretty effective with simple patterns, but it would struggle with flams, for example. It probably won't have the dynamic sensitivity of working directly with triggers. If you work with the sounds on the Alesis, you could split them out into separate channels which is a plus, but the dynamic control would take a hit from the extra step. I would have thought that working directly with triggers would be cleaner, but this approach might suit your workflow better and work fine for you.

4) You could go triggers->Alesis->MIDI recorder with a different device in the attic. You could get a MIDI interface like an iRig for your iPhone, record directly into that, then transfer the MIDI files to the DAW where they could be used to trigger different drum sounds. (This would be my preferred option if I couldn't have the drums and computer in the same room. You can run a sophisticated DAW like Cubase on iOS and it's pretty good, though cheap and simple apps are also available.)

You'll quickly get the hang of MIDI. It's simply music as data instead of audio. Instead of the sound of a piano playing middle C, there's a series of messages ("Note on" and "Note off" messages mainly) saying, "play this note, play this drum sound". There are advantages to working with MIDI in some situations, such as being able to edit the sound and timing of parts in ways that would be impossible if you were working with the audio.

merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:48 pmI understand what you’re saying about recording MIDI files but how are they to be in sync with what acoustic sources I’m playing along with them?

If you record your drums as MIDI while playing along to a track, or a click, they'll keep exactly the same timing as if you had recorded the audio.

(Re: drum replacement, note that you're not avoiding MIDI; it's being used under the hood. The system analyses the drum hits, turns them into MIDI data, then uses that to drive different drum sounds. I guess it's not fundamentally different from trigger-to-MIDI as carried out in the Alesis or by Reaper in that respect, but the sounds being analysed are more complex which has pros and cons. It makes it possible to distinguish a kick from a snare in a mix, say, but makes it harder to analyse dynamics, or hits that are very close together.)
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:05 am If you want to record direct to Reaper then investigate the remote control web interface.

https://youtu.be/CkMAj8CpvIU

This allows you to use any device with a web browser (like a phone or tablet) to control Reaper.

W O W!! Reaper ROCKS, doesn’t it?

As useful as that obviously is I would still have to say that synchronising MIDI recorded on one device with the audio recorded on another, Both during the same performance, would be a bit of a headache, perhaps

Thank you for that link!
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BJG145 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:26 am
merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:48 pmI have an iPhone - using it now to write this but can it help in this regard?

...so, if you're keeping the drum side and computer side separate, I think we've narrowed it down to a few different options.

1) I'm not sure why you're currently recording the triggers on the Zoom and then playing them back. You say the triggering is a bit erratic, so it might be the triggers at fault, but I can't imagine that this extra step is helping. With your existing setup, why not remove this step by running the triggers directly into the Alesis and recording the Alesis straight onto the Zoom...?

2) James made an interesting point about the possibility of using trigger-to-MIDI conversion in Reaper instead of doing it on the Alesis. Another thing you could try would be to record the triggers on the Zoom as you're doing, but forget the Alesis. Transfer the recorded triggers straight into Reaper, load up your virtual drums, and drive them using Reaper's own trigger/MIDI system. (I don't know about that. I'm not familiar with Reaper.)

3) You could experiment with drum sample replacement as Nigel mentioned. Some systems can identify different sounds in a mix, whereas others will need them on different tracks. For instance, you could record your acoustic kick and snare on the Zoom, no triggers involved, run them into something like SD3, and replace those sounds directly with others. (It's not a cheap piece of software, though it's very good...just an example.) How well this works depends on the complexity of the playing. I've found it pretty effective with simple patterns, but it would struggle with flams, for example. It probably won't have the dynamic sensitivity of working directly with triggers. If you work with the sounds on the Alesis, you could split them out into separate channels which is a plus, but the dynamic control would take a hit from the extra step. I would have thought that working directly with triggers would be cleaner, but this approach might suit your workflow better and work fine for you.

4) You could go triggers->Alesis->MIDI recorder with a different device in the attic. You could get a MIDI interface like an iRig for your iPhone, record directly into that, then transfer the MIDI files to the DAW where they could be used to trigger different drum sounds. (This would be my preferred option if I couldn't have the drums and computer in the same room. You can run a sophisticated DAW like Cubase on iOS and it's pretty good, though cheap and simple apps are also available.)

You'll quickly get the hang of MIDI. It's simply music as data instead of audio. Instead of the sound of a piano playing middle C, there's a series of messages ("Note on" and "Note off" messages mainly) saying, "play this note, play this drum sound". There are advantages to working with MIDI in some situations, such as being able to edit the sound and timing of parts in ways that would be impossible if you were working with the audio.

merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:48 pmI understand what you’re saying about recording MIDI files but how are they to be in sync with what acoustic sources I’m playing along with them?

If you record your drums as MIDI while playing along to a track, or a click, they'll keep exactly the same timing as if you had recorded the audio.

(Re: drum replacement, note that you're not avoiding MIDI; it's being used under the hood. The system analyses the drum hits, turns them into MIDI data, then uses that to drive different drum sounds. I guess it's not fundamentally different from trigger-to-MIDI as carried out in the Alesis or by Reaper in that respect, but the sounds being analysed are more complex which has pros and cons. It makes it possible to distinguish a kick from a snare in a mix, say, but makes it harder to analyse dynamics, or hits that are very close together.)

Thanks so much for the time you’ve taken interior my replies in the order you’ve asked…

1) because I’d rather deal with the task of adjusting sensitivity and everything else on the Alesis After a drum performance than during it.
(Ideally I’d prefer not to have to deal with it at all which is part of the reason I started this post I suppose…)

2) THIS looks like it may be the key and if I can’t try it today I shall certainly try it on the weekend. Although I’m familiar with many of the features on reaper this is new territory for me

3) :thumbup:

4)I suppose so but then we’d face the same Problem as in your 1st point, again, in that it may prove a headache synchronising midi performance to audio performance when recorded at the same time?

MIDI is something I should know more about!

Your point about recording drums as midi is a sound one (pardon the pun!) except that would only apply if everything percussive, that’s performed at the same time, was MIDI/triggers. I’m just wanting to replace the kick and Tom’s @ least. Partly that is for the sake of realism; partly to justify owning any percussion at all at this stage of my life/situation(!); Partly because it’s more solidly in my realm of understanding and workflow; Partly because I already have mics & cables & such soThat audio is no problem and of course, partly because it’s more fun!

I do record the triggers on different channels so differentiating between kick and snare et cetera I’ll be a problem the reaper if it isn’t in my current set-up :angel:

Thanks again :thumbup:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by BJG145 »

merseymale wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:42 amI would still have to say that synchronising MIDI recorded on one device with the audio recorded on another, Both during the same performance, would be a bit of a headache, perhaps

It isn't really. People do it all the time.

Recording MIDI is no different from recording audio. Get a click or a backing track going, four clicks in, and you're away.

But naturally it's entirely up to you what system best fits your workflow. :thumbup:

To give you a better idea what this looks like, the MIDI drum hits would appear visually in the Reaper track, so you can line them up with the audio hits.

Image

Perhaps I've misunderstood how you're working, however. Are you recording a full kit with cymbals and then just wanting to embellish kick/snare by layering samples over them...? Is it set up with multiple mics...? (Naturally you wouldn't be able to completely remove the recorded sounds from the mix, but you could bolster them.)

Working with recorded triggers or drum replacement might be the simplest answer for you; again, it depends partly on the complexity of the patterns. Fine for simple stuff, though direct MIDI recording will be more accurate for complicated stuff.

I'd be interested in hearing an example of one of these patterns if you could upload it to Soundcloud or somewhere, but no worries if not.
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by James Perrett »

At the risk of confusing things even further...

If you are going to find a way of feeding a MIDI cable to the computer then why not feed a USB cable at the same time? With a USB connection you could use your L20 as an audio interface and record both audio and MIDI directly to Reaper at the same time. With a good USB cable you should be able to have a length of 10 metres and even further with active extenders.
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by BJG145 »

James Perrett wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:42 amWith a good USB cable you should be able to have a length of 10 metres and even further with active extenders.

...on a slightly different subject, I was thinking about powerline networking and wondering if it was possible to rig up some kind of "MIDI over mains", or even audio over mains. I don't think the OP is going this route, I was just wondering.

*edit*

...actually, running MIDI over mains in this way is described here.

RTP-MIDI will also run over an Ethernet network using HomePlug adaptors! HomePlug adapters are amazing things that enable you to run Ethernet through the walls of your building using the mains cable and sockets, already installed in your home. Plug the adaptors straight into your power sockets, plug an Ethernet cable into each one and you instantly have Ethernet MIDI running between them.

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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BJG145 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:01 am
merseymale wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:42 amI would still have to say that synchronising MIDI recorded on one device with the audio recorded on another, Both during the same performance, would be a bit of a headache, perhaps

It isn't really. People do it all the time.

Recording MIDI is no different from recording audio. Get a click or a backing track going, four clicks in, and you're away.

But naturally it's entirely up to you what system best fits your workflow. :thumbup:

To give you a better idea what this looks like, the MIDI drum hits would appear visually in the Reaper track, so you can line them up with the audio hits.

Image

Perhaps I've misunderstood how you're working, however. Are you recording a full kit with cymbals and then just wanting to embellish kick/snare by layering samples over them...? Is it set up with multiple mics...? (Naturally you wouldn't be able to completely remove the recorded sounds from the mix, but you could bolster them.)

Working with recorded triggers or drum replacement might be the simplest answer for you; again, it depends partly on the complexity of the patterns. Fine for simple stuff, though direct MIDI recording will be more accurate for complicated stuff.

I'd be interested in hearing an example of one of these patterns if you could upload it to Soundcloud or somewhere, but no worries if not.

1)if you say so!

2) :think::thumbup:

3) i’m recording Both acoustic and non-acoustic Drumz/Cymbals at the same time

4) i’ve got as far as using the reatune on click/pulses But that’s as far as I’ve got…
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:42 am At the risk of confusing things even further...

If you are going to find a way of feeding a MIDI cable to the computer then why not feed a USB cable at the same time? With a USB connection you could use your L20 as an audio interface and record both audio and MIDI directly to Reaper at the same time. With a good USB cable you should be able to have a length of 10 metres and even further with active extenders.

I’ve tried every which way to use the L 20 as an audio interface or even a control surface as well but still no dice… :frown:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BJG145 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:24 pm
James Perrett wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:42 amWith a good USB cable you should be able to have a length of 10 metres and even further with active extenders.

...on a slightly different subject, I was thinking about powerline networking and wondering if it was possible to rig up some kind of "MIDI over mains", or even audio over mains. I don't think the OP is going this route, I was just wondering.

*edit*

...actually, running MIDI over mains in this way is described here.

RTP-MIDI will also run over an Ethernet network using HomePlug adaptors! HomePlug adapters are amazing things that enable you to run Ethernet through the walls of your building using the mains cable and sockets, already installed in your home. Plug the adaptors straight into your power sockets, plug an Ethernet cable into each one and you instantly have Ethernet MIDI running between them.


I’m getting a bit TOO lost?! :headbang:
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:40 pm
merseymale wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:51 pm How would I get a drum replacer app and how to put it into reaper?…Any thoughts on this?

Reaper comes with a few ways to do this. Two that I have used are:

JS Audio To MIDI Drum Trigger
ReaGate

which you will find in the FX Browser.

I use this mainly with the MT Power Drum Kit VSTi but you can use it with any drum sampler.

I’ve got as far as ReaGate and also used that JSaudio too BUT how do I get either of them to talk to a VSTi?
How do I get them to sound like drums, please?
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by James Perrett »

Here's a Reaper FX chain with a gate (to only allow wanted sounds through) and an Audio to MIDI trigger set up to trigger a snare in MT Power Drumkit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17F_Lfz ... sp=sharing

Change the note number in the Audio to MIDI trigger to change the drum sound. You may also need to adjust the filtering on the gate to match the sound that you are using for a trigger. You'll need a copy of MT Power Drumkit from

https://www.powerdrumkit.com/

if you want to use this exact chain but you can substitute whatever drum VSTi you have and it should work in exactly the same way.
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:32 am Here's a Reaper FX chain with a gate (to only allow wanted sounds through) and an Audio to MIDI trigger set up to trigger a snare in MT Power Drumkit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17F_Lfz ... sp=sharing

Change the note number in the Audio to MIDI trigger to change the drum sound. You may also need to adjust the filtering on the gate to match the sound that you are using for a trigger. You'll need a copy of MT Power Drumkit from

https://www.powerdrumkit.com/

if you want to use this exact chain but you can substitute whatever drum VSTi you have and it should work in exactly the same way.

Thanks SO Much for this but I dont seem to be able to find out how to open the file youve provided in Reaper..?
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by James Perrett »

merseymale wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:46 pm Thanks SO Much for this but I dont seem to be able to find out how to open the file youve provided in Reaper..?

You need to download the file and put it in

C:\Users\User\AppData\Roaming\REAPER\FXChains

assuming that you are on Windows.
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:55 pm
merseymale wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:46 pm Thanks SO Much for this but I dont seem to be able to find out how to open the file youve provided in Reaper..?

You need to download the file and put it in

C:\Users\User\AppData\Roaming\REAPER\FXChains

assuming that you are on Windows.

R I G H T… okay,Well I started trying to find ways of doing it before seeing what you’ve written here, sorry and I just ‘cut-and-pasted’ the chain onto an empty track of reaper & that seemed to work okay but should I try it your way 1st as I don’t seem to be able to make it any track are use this effects chain on to work on anything but snares (for example there is no way I can do the kick drum it seems…?)
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

James Perrett wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:55 pm
merseymale wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:46 pm Thanks SO Much for this but I dont seem to be able to find out how to open the file youve provided in Reaper..?

You need to download the file and put it in

C:\Users\User\AppData\Roaming\REAPER\FXChains

assuming that you are on Windows.

… Correction:
That particular path you mention doesn’t exist on my windows, I’m afraid
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by BWC »

C:\Users\<your username>\AppData\Roaming\REAPER\FXChains
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Re: The ‘RIGHT way’ to record Drum(samples!)?

Post by merseymale »

BWC wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:07 am C:\Users\<your username>\AppData\Roaming\REAPER\FXChains

Yup -No Luck, that route BUT just draggin’ it over to the track & dropping it there seems to work OK in that I can SEE the ‘snare’ on the GUI ‘impacting’ but NO drum audio just the clunks & clicks from the Piezo Trigger… :cry:

I feel I’m REALLY close to having the IDEAL setup for me but still not quite…

I’ve got as far as being able to trigger the free kick drum sample/power drums VSTi But it’s hardly as realistic as what I was able to do with my convoluted set up that I mentioned in my original posts!
Is it just a case of trying to find some kind of “Konyakt player“ VSTi And then finding (making?) Several velocities of kick drum and loading that in? :crazy:

Any Other Thoughts Anyone?
Thanks
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