New Hydrasynth Models

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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by The Elf »

blinddrew wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:51 pm...to keep the cost down?
Maybe? ;)

FTFY :D;)
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Drew Stephenson »

The Elf wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:05 pm
blinddrew wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:51 pm...to keep the cost down?
Maybe? ;)

FTFY :D;)

:D
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Luke W »

I get the impression that neither or you are ever going to budge on this :lol:

External PSUs do really bug me I have to say. Everything else aside I like my neat cabling, and they make that much more of a pain.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Folderol »

Ummm... an internal PSU doesn't have to be grounded. it is considered 'good practice' to carry an earth through enveloping the high voltage side for added safety, but I don't know of anywhere that requires this. it is immaterial just where the 'double insulated' bit takes place.

Also, having a well designed PSU inside the kit would reduce the possible EMC as you can use the structure itself to provide additional screening, and wouldn't have a long cable acting as an aerial both sides of the PSU.

Compared to the profits made on sales, the cost of certification is peanuts.

There is a fairly small company I know of that makes transport information systems. They not only require CE etc, but the railways have very strict regulations - they don't seem to find meeting this much of a problem.

Finally, there are companies out there that are in the business of getting kit certified. The good ones are well known across the industries and can do all the donkey work for you at a good price.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by resistorman »

The one big advantage of external PSUs is that I've been able to easily take my Hydrasynth, Wavestate and Cobalt 8 to outdoor jams using a small simple battery pack. It's been great since we haven't been able or inclined to meet indoors for well over a year.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Eddy Deegan »

I have a somewhat different, and non-technical, angle on it.

I'm with The Elf. I want internal supplies. The reason I want them is because I have getting on for 30 synthesizers. I also have half as many other gizmos in the form of hardware sequencers, powered MIDI devices, drum machines and tabletop devices and I use all of them.

One external lump doesn't seem too bad but once you have many, a small number of which don't play well with accompanying devices in adjacent sockets, it becomes an absolute nightmare.

More than half my gear uses IECs but a lot of it, especially newer stuff, doesn't. External supplies take up external space. An accumulation or them of them takes up lots of space. I'm in the middle of a studio relocation project and as a result I've put half or more of my gear in 'temporary storage' in the house. I have a shelf that looks like something out of Aliens, holding a big collection o' 'orrible black lumps 'o plastic. Sure I label them but there's always one that you missed or that the label fell off from and it's a royal pain to track that missing one down.

Further, the flimsy leads on externals are fixed length and often too short. If they're not too short they're too long. If everything used IEC sockets I'd be far better off organisationally. If you have a built-in supply you can use the correct cable length for the requirement. Thicker cables, yes, but far preferable due to no lumps, more sturdiness and a consistent aesthetic right down to the plug.

I want a Hydrasynth positioned a foot or three further from the power sockets than the provided cord is long. I want to snuggle my nice consistently-sized plugs into tight spaces and forget about them.

What I don't want is a haphazard bunch of large, randomly sized ugly plastic blocks with cables ranging from too long to too short. Not to mention all the heat concentrated on the power strip as opposed to distributed between the relatively wider spacing of the synths and devices themselves.

My dislike for external power supplies is directly related to the number of them I have, and right now I absolutely hate them. I'm drowning in them and aroundabout now I've had enough, will be making future buying decisions based on them, and providing (polite) feedback to the vendors as to why.

I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the technicalities. I'm a consumer for whom companies are building these instruments and devices and in my case externals en-masse suck. I've seen youtube videos featuring desktop-device arrangements exhibiting unrealistically tidy cabling where I know full well that just out of shot the power strip looks absolutely ridiculous.

None of this has anything to do with the technicalities or costs of providing power to circuits; it's very much about the consumer practicalities.

Built-in supplies all the way, in my book. External power supplies are simply wrong :protest::protest::protest:
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by resistorman »

Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 am The reason I want them is because I have getting on for 30 synthesizers. I also have half as many other gizmos in the form of hardware sequencers, powered MIDI devices, drum machines and tabletop devices and I use all of them.

Yikes! I have 8 or 9 wall warts spread out through the studio which I thought was excessive...
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by N i g e l »

At the price point, my preference for the Hydrasynth would have been an IEC lead.

I would have prefered IEC on my MODX as well, which is at a similar price point to the Hydrasynth. I was a bit surprised that it was an external PSU. The MODX is son of MONTAGE, which is twice the price and has an IEC.

I assume Yamaha are big enough to have a "PSU department" and that design/migration and qualification of an internal PSU would have been trivial.

resistorman wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:29 am The one big advantage of external PSUs is that I've been able to easily take my Hydrasynth, Wavestate and Cobalt 8 to outdoor jams using a small simple battery pack....

interesting point
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

Who are you lot sleeping with? It seems you buy a synth every other week. I need to change my client list. Maybe working the Yemeni angle wasn't so prudent.

I'm still saving up for a Midisport 4x4.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by N i g e l »

not me sir !

My MODX was funded by selling a legendary 1U FM rack module from the 90s {+ a slight top up} .

Although Ive gained on polyphony, 7" touch screen, sample replay, sequencer, motion control, external i/p processing, USB & computer integration, Ive lost out on being able to menu dive >2000 parameters on a 2 line LCD using buttons normally reserved for a reset function. :)
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by The Elf »

Those of us who attended the 'bring a cake, win a synth' at the last meeting now get a free synth every month for life. I didn't realise you didn't get in on it, Zuke! ;):lol:
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

N i g e l wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:08 am not me sir !

My MODX was funded by selling a legendary 1U FM rack module from the 90s {+ a slight top up} .

Although Ive gained on polyphony, 7" touch screen, sample replay, sequencer, motion control, external i/p processing, USB & computer integration, Ive lost out on being able to menu dive >2000 parameters on a 2 line LCD using buttons normally reserved for a reset function. :)

FS1R?
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

The Elf wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:10 am Those of us who attended the 'bring a cake, win a synth' at the last meeting now get a free synth every month for life. I didn't realise you didn't get in on it, Zuke! ;):lol:

No one mentioned cake.
Why did no one mention cake?
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Folderol »

Zukan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:48 am Who are you lot sleeping with? It seems you buy a synth every other week. I need to change my client list. Maybe working the Yemeni angle wasn't so prudent.

I'm still saving up for a Midisport 4x4.

Maybe we need a "Desitute Muso" forum - I'd be spending a lot of time there too!
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Luke W »

Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 am One external lump doesn't seem too bad but once you have many, a small number of which don't play well with accompanying devices in adjacent sockets, it becomes an absolute nightmare.


Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 am Further, the flimsy leads on externals are fixed length and often too short. If they're not too short they're too long. If everything used IEC sockets I'd be far better off organisationally. If you have a built-in supply you can use the correct cable length for the requirement. Thicker cables, yes, but far preferable due to no lumps, more sturdiness and a consistent aesthetic right down to the plug.

This sums up what I was too tired to type last night very well. Wiring racks etc and having to accommodate external lumps and have the cable lengths dictate where things can go is infuriating. There are always ways to make it work, and I've taken fairly extreme measures in some builds, but wherever possible I try to avoid gear that requires said effort.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

Folderol wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:17 am
Zukan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:48 am Who are you lot sleeping with? It seems you buy a synth every other week. I need to change my client list. Maybe working the Yemeni angle wasn't so prudent.

I'm still saving up for a Midisport 4x4.

Maybe we need a "Desitute Muso" forum - I'd be spending a lot of time there too!

I like that.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by N i g e l »

Zukan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:16 am FS1R?

yeah thats the one. It had an IEC cable but used to nag "Replace battery CR2032", which made me sad..... another 10 years had passed.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

I've owned a number of them before. The classic 'I sell it then realise my mistake and buy another one'. I wish I'd kept it though because it really was damn good even with the painful editing.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by N i g e l »

If you ever get the FS1r urge again, be sure to checkout the MODX 1st [or MONTAGE for those on the synths for cakes scheme].

FS1r was FM & formant whereas MODX is FM & samples but it has formant filters, multiple parts & motion sequencing which might be an equivilent and faster to set up !

I think there are tools for transfering DX7 patches to the MODX [ alot of the FS1r presets were DX7 patches layered up with added Fx]

MODX factory presets dont do it justice.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by John Stafford »

I don't mind external PSUs if they have a separate mains cable. I hate the ones that are just a fat plug.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 amThe reason I want them is because I have getting on for 30 synthesizers...

...I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the technicalities. I'm a consumer for whom companies are building these instruments and devices...

Whilst I appreciate that you alone may be a significant part of their market share ;) I humbly suggest that you might not be a 'typical' customer... ;)
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Folderol »

I rather suspect that if given a free choice at the same price the majority of people would chose kit with a built-in PSU - not that there's any way to prove it!

Also, I suspect that there are relatively few items of kit that can safely run off an unregulated 12V supply (as per resistorman).
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Zukan »

N i g e l wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:05 am If you ever get the FS1r urge again, be sure to checkout the MODX 1st [or MONTAGE for those on the synths for cakes scheme].

FS1r was FM & formant whereas MODX is FM & samples but it has formant filters, multiple parts & motion sequencing which might be an equivilent and faster to set up !

I think there are tools for transfering DX7 patches to the MODX [ alot of the FS1r presets were DX7 patches layered up with added Fx]

MODX factory presets dont do it justice.

I'll look into that. Thanks.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by ramthelinefeed »

Hey, PolyAT you guys! :clap:
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Folderol wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:26 pm I rather suspect that if given a free choice at the same price the majority of people would chose kit with a built-in PSU - not that there's any way to prove it!

I suspect that those who thought about it would (I'm one of them too) but what percentage of potential buyers that would be is another question.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Eddy Deegan »

Zukan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:23 pm
N i g e l wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:05 am If you ever get the FS1r urge again, be sure to checkout the MODX 1st [or MONTAGE for those on the synths for cakes scheme].

FS1r was FM & formant whereas MODX is FM & samples but it has formant filters, multiple parts & motion sequencing which might be an equivilent and faster to set up !

I think there are tools for transfering DX7 patches to the MODX [ alot of the FS1r presets were DX7 patches layered up with added Fx]

MODX factory presets dont do it justice.

I'll look into that. Thanks.

I bought my wife half a MODX recently (she bought the other half) and it's actually really good. Sounds great, small and light, 8-op FM synth as well as AWM2, 16 layers per performance and multiple arpeggiators that can run simultaneously and aren't 'stupid' in that they respond to what you're playing.

Phil "Bad Mister" Clendeninn at Yamaha did a bit of write-up on FM in the MODX here: https://yamahasynth.com/learn/modx/mast ... ion-part-i
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Eddy Deegan »

blinddrew wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 pm
Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 am ...I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the technicalities. I'm a consumer for whom companies are building these instruments and devices...

Whilst I appreciate that you alone may be a significant part of their market share ;) I humbly suggest that you might not be a 'typical' customer... ;)

You're not wrong, but then again neither am I ;)
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:33 pm
blinddrew wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 pm
Eddy Deegan wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:57 am ...I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the technicalities. I'm a consumer for whom companies are building these instruments and devices...

Whilst I appreciate that you alone may be a significant part of their market share ;) I humbly suggest that you might not be a 'typical' customer... ;)

You're not wrong, but then again neither am I ;)

Win Win! :D
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by t-sun »

blinddrew wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:14 pm Dare I suggest that perhaps you, and indeed most of us on this forum, are not entirely representative of the entire target market for musical instruments; being as we are, ahem, slightly older and probably slight more well-heeled than the average aspiring musician? ;)

We are very good at extrapolating our own requirements out and spending other people's money here. :D

I would not qualify myself as particularly well-heeled, over the course of twenty or so years of music equipment trading I've spent over $1k USD on one bit of kit (an 808, which I subsequently sold for rent money soon after, sigh). So, I'm happy to make do and just find the wall wart thing to be a necessary evil for my cheap but effective gear. I'm extremely excited about the Explorer, and am definitely going to buy one, but for $600 it's perfectly understandable to make a few compromises and frankly the features blow me away entirely (built in OLED oscilloscope is just such a nice touch).

The biggest problem with the wall warts is that they take up so much space on a power strip or conditioner, which requires a short extension cord. If building in an IEC type power supply is unfeasible, the power adapter that came with the Microbrute is a much better solution, because it has a second (replaceable, standard) cable that goes from the adapter to the wall, similar to a laptop supply. Never understand why other makers don't use similar supplies, at least they avoid the problem of blocked sockets.
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Re: New Hydrasynth Models

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

I've been trying to get a handle on the actual extra costs and time involved in building an SMPS into a product instead of employing an already-approved external unit to supply low-voltage DC to the product.

I've talked with a few product designers and manufacturers in the UK and they are all saying very similar things.

Every new product has to be tested to comply with the EMC standards for the countries they wish to sell into, and those standards are extensive. Japan and South Korea have particularly stringent requirements, apparently. One manufacturer supplied this list of required standards to give an idea of the complexity:

•EN 55032:2015, Class B
•EN 55016-2-1:2009 A1 2011
•EN 55016-2-3:2010 A1 2010
•EN 55035:2017
•EN61000-4-2:2009
•EN 61000-4-3:2006 A1 2008 A2 2010
•EN 61000-4-4:2012
•EN 61000-4-5:2014 A1 2017
•EN 61000-4-6:2014
•EN 6100-4-11:2004 A1 2017
•EN 61000-3-2:2014
•EN 61000-3-2:2013
•FCC Part 15B Class B
•ANSI C63.4:2014
•ICES-003 Issue 6: Class B

...and this is just for using an external pre-certified SMPS 'line lump' supply.

Testing EMC compliance with an already-approved line-lump power unit typically costs around £10k, but if the EMC tests fail for any reason, the cause has to be identified, rectified, and the product retested... for the same cost again.

So if the manufacturer expects to sell 1000 items, say, (which is fairly typical for the low-volume products we're talking about) the EMC testing adds £10 to the cost of every product leaving the factory. That becomes around £50 added to price for each unit sold to a customer after distribution and retailer markups and sales taxes. In a highly competitive market place, that is a significant factor in a devices' financial viability.

If, instead, the product is fitted with a mains inlet, the testing regime becomes a whole lot more complex -- even when using an internal OEM SMPS power unit. Depending on how the company goes about the overall product design, an internal PSU can apparently add further testing and certification costs of over £12k, which are in addition to the standard EMC certification costs, and a hike to the retail price of around £75-100. It is also likely to involve more internal metal screening which obviously add to the mechanical design and construction costs, as well as increasing weight and this potentially adding to the shipping costs.

In addition to that, some of those I talked with discussed other significant practical benefits to using external SMPS line-lump power supplies. Many revolve around keeping the inherent fast switching transients and other electronic noise away from sensitive audio circuitry -- particularly relevant to things like mic preamps, of course. However, it also means the product can be made smaller and lighter as it needs less internal metal shielding, and these factors are often relevant concerns in keyboards.

So it really comes down to whether enough people would be prepared to pay, say £1600 or more for an instrument with an internal PSU instead of £1500 or less for one with an external PSU.

In such a fiercely competitive market place, the general feeling from those I've talked to is no -- they believe few of their customers would be prepared to pay an extra £100 or more just for the luxury of an internal mains PSU. It might be different with high-end 'professional products'... although the pro market is even smaller and increasingly using semi-pro products for price reasons!

I know these points have been discussed before, but I thought it helpful to have some real world numbers to mull over.
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