Belief in the Music we make

[RichardT]

...for example I feel that Bach is better than Vivaldi, and Mahler better than Vaughan Williams.

"Bach is better than Vivaldi"= I like Bach better than Vivaldi

Hope you agree with my tweak.

So, if 'Air on a G String' moves you more than anything you've ever written yourself, does that mean you don't believe in your own stuff as much? From what you've said, it sounds like you believe in your own stuff as long as it achieves a certain standard of excellence.

Yes, that's what it comes down to - even though I feel one is better than the other, I know that doesn't have any objective basis.

[awjoe]

Okay, we seem to be on the same, or a similar, page. So can we go a bit deeper on this one? This thread title caught my attention right away, and right from the start I was having trouble with the meaning of 'believe in' - that terminology doesn't really seem to apply to my attitude toward my own music. I mean, do you 'believe in' your body, for example? I don't 'believe in' my body and I don't 'believe in' my music - they're both just facts of existence.

Maybe it would be easier for me to deal with questions like:

How much do you like your own music?

What is your music worth to you?

If I understand tea for two correctly, he's (she's?) saying you have to feel your music has an inherent positive value, even if you compare it to other people's music.

[GilesAnt]

Of course Bach is better than Vivaldi - there was a quote somewhere about Vivaldi not writing 200 concertos, but writing one concerto 200 times.

[RichardT]

Okay, we seem to be on the same, or a similar, page. So can we go a bit deeper on this one? This thread title caught my attention right away, and right from the start I was having trouble with the meaning of 'believe in' - that terminology doesn't really seem to apply to my attitude toward my own music. I mean, do you 'believe in' your body, for example? I don't 'believe in' my body and I don't 'believe in' my music - they're both just facts of existence.

Maybe it would be easier for me to deal with questions like:

How much do you like your own music?

What is your music worth to you?

If I understand tea for two correctly, he's (she's?) saying you have to feel your music has an inherent positive value, even if you compare it to other people's music.

I think Tea For Two means something different by ‘believe’ than ‘believe in the existence of’ but that’s just my interpretation. I interpret them to mean ‘believe it’s worthwhile’. So I think you’re right.

[Eddy Deegan]

Having completed two SOS forum album projects, being in the process of preparing the 3rd for release, having heard the works submitted to Dave B's several epic One Synth Challenges and having bought more albums than I care to mention from forum members with Bandcamp offerings it's clear that there is a wide variety of excellent music being produced by people in our own Sound On Sound community.

Many folks here massively undersell themselves IMHO. I would name names but I don't want to embarrass anyone. Sure, many of us have a ways to go to improve our mixing and engineering chops but a number of folks here are superb at those skills.

I 'believe' in the music I create but I'm equally aware my weaknesses mainly lie in the engineering, though I continually work on it and it's improving with input from the folks who generously take the time to help when I ask, either directly or through the Self Promotion forum which I can recommend highly.

It's easy to conflate good music with good engineering. I've heard the works of many amateurs/hobbyists who wouldn't claim to know one end of a mic' from the other but who write, record and provide (on SoundCloud, Bandcamp and so on) brilliant material.

A few people get to the point where they can both create original material and engineer it to a high standard but if you can't engineer as well as you'd like then that certainly has no bearing on the music itself.

I know with certainty there are a number of 'undiscovered gems' amongst our membership because I've heard their work and if anyone takes the trouble and time to seek them out it's greatly worth the effort as a lot of them don't promote themselves for one reason or another.

[Eddy Deegan]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.

I was digging back in a forum search looking for something completely different and saw this along the way.

I don't want to blow smoke up the proverbial Drew but I disagree with your conclusion. The finer points of engineering and musicianship are always up for discussion but heaven knows it's something we all work at. The Zukans and Elfs of this world leave most of us in the dust on the former and in addition to them there are more people still who can help the latter but you're certainly able to render worthy renditions of your musical works.

Maybe you didn't find the right A&R person, or whatever the equivalent is these days, but in terms of lyricism/storytelling my humble opinion is that you're right up there with the best of them and those strengths have enormous potential were you to be aligned with someone who can 'embrace and extend' such things as chord progressions and formal musical chops.

You could read that as a criticism but it's anything but. I know more than one artist who has taken their work to the next level by getting help with things that aren't their comfort zone whether it's engineering, arrangement or contributing sections of original composition. Meanwhile they've been able to focus on their own strengths and responding/working with that qualified input.

Your recent invite for others to collaborate with you is a wonderful idea and with a little patience, I think it'll yield great results.

[awjoe]

@ GilesAnt

Mm. How many concertos did Bach write? I'm familiar with six.

[awjoe]

I would name names but I don't want to embarrass anyone.

We could all name names.

the Self Promotion forum which I can recommend highly.

Me too, but you know what? What I would like to hear is music being made (or contributed to) by the SOSers (saucers?) who don't post their stuff in the self-promotion forum. Just saying there must be a *ton* of music made by people here which never gets heard by people here. Am I wrong? Can I get a witness?

(Gets off soap box, heads back to self promotion forum)

[tea for two]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them

I took nearly a decade breather from making music (late 2010 to late 2019 although I widdled on ipad in between, brought some gear) after I realised how limited I am.

It was liberating, brought a sense of peace inside me this realisation.

::

When I listen to Bach or Vivaldi (or Aldous Harding or Hank Williams), I'm lost in admiration, appreciation, and love for the beauty of their music. But I'm not responsible for their music. It's their music, not mine. But my attitude to my own music is different - I'm responsible for it. The danger of harsh self-judgement is so present that I simply don't go there. I can't afford it. Or rather, the creative process can't afford it. It thrives on being nurtured, not being attacked.

I totally agree with this. Others music is others. Ours is our.
This why I wrote we can hold up our music to any music in history of music because it is personal to us same as famous musicians music is personal to them.
We can't hold it up in terms of theory, compositional musical ability yet that is different from the personal belief in our music.

It's this personal belief that should help us nurture our musical self.

::

I always have ideas for music I want to write,

...

I'm not going to rival the late Beethoven quartets, but so what? I'm not going to win 100m at the Olympics either. It's still fun to watch.

Exactly. Music in its Source is never about comparing, rivalry (some musicians have made it so).
Music in its Source is about the personal impact it has upon us.

::

For me it’s important that I think my music is ‘good’ rather than just ‘mine’ before I release it. I guess I mean it has a good architecture, and sense of flow, and that it gets me emotionally. If it doesn’t ‘work’ I won’t release it.

This judgement is an essential aspect of making music.
What to keep and polish, to cut and cull, to alter improve.

I would never put on an album any of my doodlings. As they are pants. Yet I still belive in my doodlings to keep on doodling lol.

::

I think Tea For Two means something different by ‘believe’ than ‘believe in the existence of’ but that’s just my interpretation. I interpret them to mean ‘believe it’s worthwhile’. So I think you’re right.

Maybe this

I'm finishing an album working on final track it's 5th on the album.
In myself I have belief in the melodic music for this album.
It is this belief that makes me make music for this album.

Yet if anyone anywhere, excluding family, said let's have a listen I'd shrug blow a raspberry eurrrggghh it's just doodling :  no confidence.

I gave an album to a Grammy winning Mastering Engineer last year to be mastered yet I never released the album even though I believe in the album.

::

I have a friend who is a song writer,
I’ve been on a recording session with him, he knows "exactly"what he wants, he’s 150% confident that was he is doing is right, and it will work, and it does.
... he always works to a formula, everything is pre-planned, to the last detail
...
I just wish, I had his confidence, and certainty about what I do.

He sounds like Hitchcock lol. Hitchcok said he pre-planned everything to the last detail before filming. Then it was just following through.

As a teen to mid 20s I was brimming with confidence. Then as with most of us life hits, knocked the stuffing outta me / us.
I don't think I will ever be confident and I'm grateful because in return it has brought several other things that's been enriching.

::

Having completed two SOS forum album projects, being in the process of preparing the 3rd for release, having heard the works submitted to Dave B's several epic One Synth Challenges and having bought more albums than I care to mention from forum members with Bandcamp offerings it's clear that there is a wide variety of excellent music being produced by people in our own Sound On Sound community.

Many folks here massively undersell themselves IMHO.

I 'believe' in the music I create but I'm equally aware my weaknesses mainly lie in the engineering, though I continually work on it

For sure.

I mentioned in Musicians Lounge if I had the connections I would given SoS forum album to the Cohen Brothers, Wes Anderson, to be included in their Movies. This is the confidence I have in the music on those SoS forum albums.

Belief in our music is essential to keep on making music. We need not have confidence in our music.
At the same time awareness of our weaknesses to improve where we can without beating up ourself.

Humbleness Humility in our compositional, musical ability is preferable to confidence I would say. Yet to become a musical *star* somehow have to blag being confident "fake it till you make it" kinda.

[Eddy Deegan]

What I would like to hear is music being made (or contributed to) by the SOSers (saucers?) who don't post their stuff in the self-promotion forum. Just saying there must be a *ton* of music made by people here which never gets heard by people here.

Absolutely - that was pretty much what I was trying to say but you put it better

[Folderol]

Interesting topic generally. It wouldn't be possible for me to not believe in the music I make. Sometimes I feel a bit of a fraud in that the best ideas seem to just arrive without conscious effort on my part - often in the middle of the night!

My take on this is that music is just a part of me. I never made a decision like 'I want to be a musician'. Things just happened. When I was a kid, there was a beat-up wood framed piano at home and I started messing about on it. Soon I was playing simple tunes on it.
I think I previously mentioned being inspired by a glass model sailing ship when I was 14. I held the basic melody for that in my head for years before I had the kit to be able to reproduce it. That was not a decision. I just found myself humming it from time to time.

[ManFromGlass]

I attended a Zoom talk from a person who worked in the Hollywood film music scene. She said that sometimes success in that business is down to who you know, so networking is important.
Other times it’s just dumb luck - being in the right place at the right time, having your track show up on the right desk exactly when a track like that is needed.
So do we control our destinies or are we just blown about by the winds of karma?

Folderol’s got posted before I finished typing. For me never any question about doing music and related. It just unfolded that way.

[Arpangel]

Please, all of you, just enjoy making your music, and stop theorising on this forum, I’m not doing anything, and I wish I had your enthusiasm.
I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.
Time to have a stock take of my life, because if things get any worse, I’m not going to have the enthusiasm to get out of bed.

[Drew Stephenson]

I don't want to blow smoke up the proverbial Drew but I disagree with your conclusion. The finer points of engineering and musicianship are always up for discussion but heaven knows it's something we all work at. The Zukans and Elfs of this world leave most of us in the dust on the former and in addition to them there are more people still who can help the latter but you're certainly able to render worthy renditions of your musical works.

Maybe you didn't find the right A&R person, or whatever the equivalent is these days, but in terms of lyricism/storytelling my humble opinion is that you're right up there with the best of them and those strengths have enormous potential were you to be aligned with someone who can 'embrace and extend' such things as chord progressions

That's very kind of you to say Eddy.
You're wrong, but it's still very kind of you to say.

[RichardT]

Please, all of you, just enjoy making your music, and stop theorising on this forum, I’m not doing anything, and I wish I had your enthusiasm.
I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.
Time to have a stock take of my life, because if things get any worse, I’m not going to have the enthusiasm to get out of bed.

Sounds like depression to me Tony. You should get yourself some help right away.

[OneWorld]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them and hoping that they might work for a few other people along the way.
It does make things easier to understand your target market.

I think you speak for a lot of us there. And if the music we write hits the spot for ourselves at least, then it's mission accomplished. Just like the bloke on the next plot at the allotments always gets bigger marrows than I do, but, so what, mine taste ok to me, so that'll do.

I think there is a lot to be said for having the pragmatism to not be so delusional and just accept, at best our music might be 'OK' Once we have acknowledged that, and accept it as a very enjoyable and creative hobby, then the music has done its job, given us hours of entertainment.

I remember once listening to an interview with Quincy Jones who said he got 100's of demos each week. 75% he could bin straight away, the rest were 'OK' and every one in a blue moon one demo came along that was 'the one' He said he said there was loads of 'OK' music out there, well performed, well executed, good arrangement, good musicianship etc, but 'OK' isn't good enough.

I read that Taylor Swift dropped by a pub in Ireland last week where they had a singer writer doing his stuff, and Taylor Swift said to him "You're putting your 10,000 hours in then, and that's where we all begin" Seems all consummate professionals, even the gifted stars all have one thing in common, hard graft, and then some.

[tea for two]

I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.

I recently purchased a sampler dual keyboard its from the 80s a Casio Dm100 because samplers do something for me and I couldn't fit a proper electric organ with pedalboard (limited space) so this dual keyboard Casio just the ticket.
Since it arrived over fortnight earlier I played it twice.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/193629214 ... 492436988/
https://www.matrixsynth.com/2007/08/cas ... 0.html?m=1
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HcwefVORISw

The issue is depending / relying overly on gear on an instrument, when we should rely on the Source of Inspiration (in various forms), the Source of Music.

[tea for two]

It wouldn't be possible for me to not believe in the music I make.

My take on this is that music is just a part of me. I never made a decision like 'I want to be a musician'. Things just happened. When I was a kid, there was a beat-up wood framed piano at home and I started messing about on it. Soon I was playing simple tunes on it.

For me never any question about doing music and related. It just unfolded that way.

I think if we are granted a fraction of a gift from the Source of Music then it becomes part of us and we can't help but make music and it would be throwing this gift back in the face of the Source of Music if we didn't make music.

::

I attended a Zoom talk from a person who worked in the Hollywood film music scene. She said that sometimes success in that business is down to who you know....
Other times it’s just dumb luck - being in the right place at the right time, having your track show up on the right desk exactly when a track like that is needed.
So do we control our destinies or are we just blown about by the winds of karma?

I have zero idea regards Karma as so many hit singles been manufactured marketed to hit a target audience.
Although the phrase : luck = preparation + grasping opportunities : seems to have struck a chord with me, even though I have failed miserably in this and continue to do so : I'm a happy loser lol.

::

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them and hoping that they might work for a few other people along the way.

I think you speak for a lot of us there. And if the music we write hits the spot for ourselves at least, then it's mission accomplished. Just like the bloke on the next plot at the allotments always gets bigger marrows than I do, but, so what, mine taste ok to me, so that'll do.

I think there is a lot to be said for having the pragmatism to not be so delusional and just accept, at best our music might be 'OK' Once we have acknowledged that, and accept it as a very enjoyable and creative hobby, then the music has done its job, given us hours of entertainment.

Wholeheartedly agree.
If the music we make means something to just one person even if this person is us then it has done what it was meant to.
This should be plenty to give us belief to keep on making music.
It's plenty for me.

[tea for two]

I remember once listening to an interview with Quincy Jones who said he got 100's of demos each week. 75% he could bin straight away, the rest were 'OK' and every one in a blue moon one demo came along that was 'the one' He said he said there was loads of 'OK' music out there, well performed, well executed, good arrangement, good musicianship etc, but 'OK' isn't good enough.

I can only guess those sending in demos to Quincy wanted a hit record, to get a record contract, be a music star.
In which instance it's undrestandible Quincy would be analytical, selective.

However when it is our Personal music, someone as Quincy's opinion means in Quincy's words jack sh*t .
As does anyone else's opinion.
We must keep this in mind.
Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

::

Moreover there's hundreds of styles of music around the world, someone as Quincy and anyone else for that matter is not even qualified in the slightest to pass any analysis on those styles.

::

Incidentally I would like to hear Quincy's personal music.
Not the hit singles he worked on, not the arrangements he did for Frank Sinatra.
As Quincy was a student of Nadia Boulanger did he apply Nadia's teachings to his personal music.

[Arpangel]

Thought this might be of interest, to this thread, vaguely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8CNhakfB7c