Belief in the Music we make

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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

OneWorld wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:26 pm
I remember once listening to an interview with Quincy Jones who said he got 100's of demos each week. 75% he could bin straight away, the rest were 'OK' and every one in a blue moon one demo came along that was 'the one' He said he said there was loads of 'OK' music out there, well performed, well executed, good arrangement, good musicianship etc, but 'OK' isn't good enough.

I can only guess those sending in demos to Quincy wanted a hit record, to get a record contract, be a music star.
In which instance it's undrestandible Quincy would be analytical, selective.

However when it is our Personal music, someone as Quincy's opinion means in Quincy's words jack sh*t .
As does anyone else's opinion.
We must keep this in mind.
Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

::

Moreover there's hundreds of styles of music around the world, someone as Quincy and anyone else for that matter is not even qualified in the slightest to pass any analysis on those styles.

::

Incidentally I would like to hear Quincy's personal music.
Not the hit singles he worked on, not the arrangements he did for Frank Sinatra.
As Quincy was a student of Nadia Boulanger did he apply Nadia's teachings to his personal music.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Thought this might be of interest, to this thread, vaguely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8CNhakfB7c
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Martin Walker »

Arpangel wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:42 pm Thought this might be of interest, to this thread, vaguely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8CNhakfB7c

I'm sure some of us can identify with that creative impasse Tony.

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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:54 pm
Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

I agree with some of this, to a degree, but I’d actually like other people to listen to, and enjoy my music, if that’s the case, the more people that listen to it is partly a judge of its success.
Whenever I’m making music, consciously or not, I’m thinking about the effect it’s going to have on the listener, I can’t help it, no matter how radical or left field it may be, it has to have a "musical" structure, it has to connect emotionally with someone, otherwise, it’s like painting a picture that only I can look at, or a book only I can read, you have to throw your work open to everyone, it’s interesting, to find out what people think, and what it means to "them" they are in the equation too.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by adrian_k »

I’m the opposite. The thought of anyone else listening to my music spoils it, takes it away from being engaging and meaningful to an exercise in doing something to entertain, which I have no interest in.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

adrian_k wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:15 am I’m the opposite. The thought of anyone else listening to my music spoils it, takes it away from being engaging and meaningful to an exercise in doing something to entertain, which I have no interest in.

IMO, music is engaging and musical "because" it connects with other people.
And we are all entertainers, whether we like it or not.
We need to be loved and appreciated, it’s a fact of life, some will hate what we do, and definitely won’t appreciate it, but that’s a fact of life also.
There are a lot of people that don’t write or record the first note, the main reason being they don’t want to be disliked, music is a reflection of who we are, and some people like us, some don’t.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by RichardT »

Arpangel wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:41 am
tea for two wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:54 pm
Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

I agree with some of this, to a degree, but I’d actually like other people to listen to, and enjoy my music, if that’s the case, the more people that listen to it is partly a judge of its success.
Whenever I’m making music, consciously or not, I’m thinking about the effect it’s going to have on the listener, I can’t help it, no matter how radical or left field it may be, it has to have a "musical" structure, it has to connect emotionally with someone, otherwise, it’s like painting a picture that only I can look at, or a book only I can read, you have to throw your work open to everyone, it’s interesting, to find out what people think, and what it means to "them" they are in the equation too.

I agree with this. For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

RichardT wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:58 am
I agree with this. For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

Yes, I’ve come across this view from a few people that I like, it seems quite common, it’s not obligatory, we’re all different, but to make or create something and not share it, is a bit puzzling to me.
I have a friend who plays piano, she won’t play in front of anyone, I really don’t care what she’s like, but she won’t play, I find that extremely weird, it just makes me more interested in hearing her play!
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by adrian_k »

I think I maybe understand her point of view. When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

I’ve recorded very little as I like to improvise and I like the idea that when it’s gone it’s gone.

I have recorded the odd song, but that was more an exercise in getting something done than making a musical statement, I don’t feel ownership for the end result, they always seem lifeless and overworked.

Well we are all different! And I’m glad other people record music for me to listen to, so what kind of a hypocrite am I? :beamup:
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by paul tha other »

this subject strikes a chord with me..this was something that changed my attitude towards it..i have a little home setup and have access to a studio ..i used to record all my stuff at home apart from vocals(i lived in a flat and was way to self aware to sing at home)
one day i had gone into work early to record my vocals..i had a session booked at 6 so i went in at 4..set up my stuff ,did 5 or 6 takes and went into the control room to comp the vocal..after i had finished comping i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap,its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes but i really dont like it and now i hear it with the vocals in ,i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

adrian_k wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:51 pm I like to improvise and I like the idea that when it’s gone it’s gone.

I'm torn, I’d like to be able to repeat my improvisations, but I can’t, I can’t write things down, which I’d like to have learnt to do.
On the other hand, and I don’t mean this flippantly, not being able to play anything again is a sure far way of staying fresh!
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

paul tha other wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 am i cant judge it.im way to close to it

Very very true, but at the same time, self-criticism is essential, and judgement, when composing.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by ManFromGlass »

Interesting approach. I find all that stuff gets in the way of the music manifesting itself. I don’t mean to sound new-age-y but I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over to get it to final mix unless it stands on it’s own, warts and all, or it’s a live performance once it’s finished it’s gone .. .
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by MOF »

I’d like to be able to repeat my improvisations, but I can’t, I can’t write things down, which I’d like to have learnt to do.

Why don’t you leave your DAW in record all the time then keep the best bits?
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

Arpangel wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:29 am I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

ManFromGlass wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:43 pm I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over

I would say belief in our processes is as necessary as belief in our music.

::

RichardT wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:58 am For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

For me this the difference between belief and confidence.

Belief to make the music we make, belief that the music we make would give something to someone.

Confidence to put our music out there no matter if it gets ripped to shreds by whomever.

::

adrian_k wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:51 pm When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

Yep. As soon as we couldn't give two hoots about other people's views on what we do, we can start to make the music we want to make.

Some or many may not get the music we make. That's alrighty, not everyone gets us as a person let alone our music.

Siouxsie and the Banshees were influential on some musicians, whereas several listeners just didn't get them.

::

paul tha other wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 am this subject strikes a chord with me.. i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap, its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes... i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it

I think we tend to knock our self belief far too easily.

Playing our completed music to xyz that we trust to get a feel for their views is something I do too.

One of my favourite aspects of SoS magazine was when listeners sent in their tapes to be reviewed for how they could be improved.

I've saved all my crap I did over decade earlier.
Since August this year I re-listened to them.
Some of it I still think is crap after over a decade break from them and with hindsight.
Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear which such a long break from them gave me.

::
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:13 am
Arpangel wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:29 am I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.


tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:13 am
Arpangel wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:29 am I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

Arpangel wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:31 am

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.


Liam lol he's mellowed since his mid90s when he was ready to headbutt.
Hampstead Heath I wanted to photograph Kingfishers only photographed the Owls.

Truth is one of the most subjective things.
People express opinions, some will peddle as truth... it is nothing of the sort, just as ar*es everyone has an opinion.

Criticism is a word that riles people.
Constructive beneficial analysis is preferable.
When someone says oh you can't handle criticism, say to them :
no you are just being a div a tw*t, you are bullying picking, why don't you try to offer Constructive beneficial analysis if you have the capability or would you like me to pick on you?

Really the World has so many people willing to knock our self belief.
Gotta keep shields up else get crushed.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:54 am
Arpangel wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:31 am

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.


Liam lol he's mellowed since his mid90s when he was ready to headbutt.
Hampstead Heath I wanted to photograph Kingfishers only photographed the Owls.

Truth is one of the most subjective things.
People express opinions, some will peddle as truth... it is nothing of the sort, just as ar*es everyone has an opinion.

Criticism is a crap word.
Constructive beneficial analysis is better.
When someone says oh you can't handle criticism, say to them :
no you are just being a tw*t you are bullying picking, why don't you try to offer Constructive beneficial analysis if you have the capability or would you like me to pick on you?

Really the World has so many people willing to knock our self belief.
Gotta keep shields up else get crushed.

We all have different goals, and uses for our creative pursuits, it depends how high you aim, and if you have the ability, music for some is a hobby, for others, it’s therapy, for others, it’s a profession.
You have to have a certain level of talent, or natural ability, to reach a high level, if you haven’t, it’s patently obvious, and it’s easy to spot, and point out or "criticise" Anyone can see that a person is then, either deluded, or very misguided, some people take on-board advice, some don’t, and spend their whole lives wasting their time, going up a dead end road.
Fine if we want to sit at home and make music just for us, but if you want to take it beyond that, there are certain standards you have to achieve, some are definable, like in classical music, some aren’t definable at all, if you’re an experimentalist, but you’ll know immediately, in both camps, when real talent exists, and when it doesn’t, and when, it’s worth pursuing.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Dashanna »

“Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art.”
Andy Warhol
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Dashanna wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:25 am “Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art.”
Andy Warhol

That’s what I do most of the time, but as I said, it depends on what your goals, and expectations are.
I’m happy just doing what I do, but I’d be a liar if I said I didn’t expect more.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

(I'm just repeating this as it might have gotten lost).

ManFromGlass wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:43 pm I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over

I would say belief in our processes is as necessary as belief in our music.

::

RichardT wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:58 am For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

For me this the difference between belief and confidence.

Belief to make the music we make, belief that the music we make would give something to someone.

Confidence to put our music out there no matter if it gets ripped to shreds by whomever.

::

adrian_k wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:51 pm When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

Yep. As soon as we couldn't give two hoots about other people's views on what we do, we can start to make the music we want to make.

Some or many may not get the music we make. That's alrighty, not everyone gets us as a person let alone our music.

Siouxsie and the Banshees were influential on some musicians, whereas several listeners just didn't get them.

::

paul tha other wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 am this subject strikes a chord with me.. i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap, its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes... i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it

I think we tend to knock our self belief far too easily.

Playing our completed music to xyz that we trust to get a feel for their views is something I do too.

One of my favourite aspects of SOS magazine was when listeners sent in their tapes to be reviewed for how they could be improved.

::

I've saved all my crap I did over decade earlier.
Since August this year I re-listened to them.
Some of it I still think is crap after over a decade break from them and with hindsight.
Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Folderol »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:13 pm Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.

THIS! especially :thumbup:
You should never even think about assessing you own work until you've had time to de-saturate.
Some years back I very nearly deleted a project only to find that people loved it!
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by OneWorld »

I think music is like life itself. It isn't so much the final destination but the journey to that end
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Folderol wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:30 pm
tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:13 pm Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.

THIS! especially :thumbup:
You should never even think about assessing you own work until you've had time to de-saturate.
Some years back I very nearly deleted a project only to find that people loved it!

I’m discovering all sorts of crap in my tape store that actually sounds good now, after about fifty years.

:)

I'm off, more peeling, I’ve got "peeling fatigue"
A large tequila is required.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

OneWorld wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:52 pm I think music is like life itself. It isn't so much the final destination but the journey to that end

Spot on.
For every person making music wanting to make music.
Even if this journey results in anguish failure fustration years of waste. This is was their path.

::

Dashanna wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:25 am “Don't think about making art, just get it done....”
Andy Warhol

I dig this. Like RonSeal it does what it says on the tin lol.

::

Arpangel wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:10 am
We all have different goals, and uses for our creative pursuits, it depends how high you aim, and if you have the ability, music for some is a hobby, for others, it’s therapy, for others, it’s a profession.
You have to have a certain level of talent, or natural ability, to reach a high level, if you haven’t, it’s patently obvious, and it’s easy to spot, and point out or "criticise" Anyone can see that a person is then, either deluded, or very misguided, some people take on-board advice, some don’t, and spend their whole lives wasting their time, going up a dead end road.
Fine if we want to sit at home and make music just for us, but if you want to take it beyond that, there are certain standards you have to achieve, some are definable, like in classical music, some aren’t definable at all, if you’re an experimentalist, but you’ll know immediately, in both camps, when real talent exists, and when it doesn’t, and when, it’s worth pursuing.

One way to look at this is

Every person's music, is was their connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Thus no matter what level a musician is at, no one should ever dissuade them knock them from connecting to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Should they request help to get a song an instrumental to a certain standard then those that can help out, help out.

There's a billion tracks of so many diverse ideas online.

::

As music makers we reach for our own connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Other persons music is their connection not our connection, thus their music is a hand me down connection when it reaches us.

::

These days since lockdown I'm more vested in reaching for my connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.
Whereas most of my life I was 90% vested in other musicians connections to the detriment of my own connection.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:26 pm [
Whereas most of my life I was 90% vested in other musicians connections to the detriment of my own connection.

That the bottom line of your post, and the most important one for me.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

If we want our connection to the infinite source (sauce lol) of musical ideas to remain strong

Then we gotta stop being negatively judgemental as to people's musical ability ... this and that has limited little talent.

Else, we are only severing our connection by being negatively judgemental.
We are only proving ourself unworthy of our connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

::

In practical terms as there are billion songs, instrumentals, online from styles all over the World, with such diverse ideas,
No person on Earth can even begin to make any bunk claim as to say ... this and that has limited to little talent.

Talk of "talent"
reminds me of a saying by Einstein "if you judge a fish by it's ability to climb, then it will live its whole life believing it is stupid."

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Tech has made this more possible.

::

Also as Salieri in the film Amadeus, wishing why not me, why can't I be as xyz, I wish i could do as xyz,
is covetousness and discontent with our lot.
This too is severing our connection, making us unworthy of what we were given from the infinite source of musical ideas.

::

Returning to Belief in our music.

If we wish to keep our Belief strong, to keep strong our connection to the infinite source of musical ideas,
then it is to make the best of our lot content with what we been given including crafting practicing working to make ourself better,
without being negatively judgemental on anyone else's musical ability, without being covetous of anyone else's musical ability.

::

(Took me a Long while to arrive at this, as I did the opposite to this to my detriment).
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

This "infinite source of musical ideas"
Reminds me of the idea that music flows through us, from somewhere, heavenly, sacred or devine, we’ve been chosen as a conduit of transmission, allowing us a glimpse of heaven.
Who does the choosing?
Talent? It does exist, it may exist in ways that we aren’t used to describing it, like Autism, Asperger’s, these sometimes disturbing conditions can produce interesting ability’s in those that are in various parts of the spectrum.
Also, you don’t have to be a nice person, in any way, to be creative, some of the biggest a-holes I’ve ever met have been the most talented and gifted.
I have no opinions on where our music comes from, I simply don’t know, and I simply, don’t care.
We can wax lyrical about this for an eternity, all I know is that I do what I do, and I’ll do it until the day I die, I'm not a judgemental person, but some of us seem to be better than others at doing a lot of things, and those that criticise, on a professional level, seem to be good at f**k-all most of the time.
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Arpangel
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by MOF »

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.
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