Belief in the Music we make

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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:54 am
Arpangel wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:31 am

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.


Liam lol he's mellowed since his mid90s when he was ready to headbutt.
Hampstead Heath I wanted to photograph Kingfishers only photographed the Owls.

Truth is one of the most subjective things.
People express opinions, some will peddle as truth... it is nothing of the sort, just as ar*es everyone has an opinion.

Criticism is a crap word.
Constructive beneficial analysis is better.
When someone says oh you can't handle criticism, say to them :
no you are just being a tw*t you are bullying picking, why don't you try to offer Constructive beneficial analysis if you have the capability or would you like me to pick on you?

Really the World has so many people willing to knock our self belief.
Gotta keep shields up else get crushed.

We all have different goals, and uses for our creative pursuits, it depends how high you aim, and if you have the ability, music for some is a hobby, for others, it’s therapy, for others, it’s a profession.
You have to have a certain level of talent, or natural ability, to reach a high level, if you haven’t, it’s patently obvious, and it’s easy to spot, and point out or "criticise" Anyone can see that a person is then, either deluded, or very misguided, some people take on-board advice, some don’t, and spend their whole lives wasting their time, going up a dead end road.
Fine if we want to sit at home and make music just for us, but if you want to take it beyond that, there are certain standards you have to achieve, some are definable, like in classical music, some aren’t definable at all, if you’re an experimentalist, but you’ll know immediately, in both camps, when real talent exists, and when it doesn’t, and when, it’s worth pursuing.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Dashanna »

“Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art.”
Andy Warhol
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Dashanna wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:25 am “Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art.”
Andy Warhol

That’s what I do most of the time, but as I said, it depends on what your goals, and expectations are.
I’m happy just doing what I do, but I’d be a liar if I said I didn’t expect more.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

(I'm just repeating this as it might have gotten lost).

ManFromGlass wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 12:43 pm I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over

I would say belief in our processes is as necessary as belief in our music.

::

RichardT wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:58 am For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

For me this the difference between belief and confidence.

Belief to make the music we make, belief that the music we make would give something to someone.

Confidence to put our music out there no matter if it gets ripped to shreds by whomever.

::

adrian_k wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:51 pm When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

Yep. As soon as we couldn't give two hoots about other people's views on what we do, we can start to make the music we want to make.

Some or many may not get the music we make. That's alrighty, not everyone gets us as a person let alone our music.

Siouxsie and the Banshees were influential on some musicians, whereas several listeners just didn't get them.

::

paul tha other wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:52 am this subject strikes a chord with me.. i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap, its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes... i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it

I think we tend to knock our self belief far too easily.

Playing our completed music to xyz that we trust to get a feel for their views is something I do too.

One of my favourite aspects of SOS magazine was when listeners sent in their tapes to be reviewed for how they could be improved.

::

I've saved all my crap I did over decade earlier.
Since August this year I re-listened to them.
Some of it I still think is crap after over a decade break from them and with hindsight.
Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Folderol »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:13 pm Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.

THIS! especially :thumbup:
You should never even think about assessing you own work until you've had time to de-saturate.
Some years back I very nearly deleted a project only to find that people loved it!
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by OneWorld »

I think music is like life itself. It isn't so much the final destination but the journey to that end
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Folderol wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:30 pm
tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:13 pm Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear, which such a long break from them gave me.

THIS! especially :thumbup:
You should never even think about assessing you own work until you've had time to de-saturate.
Some years back I very nearly deleted a project only to find that people loved it!

I’m discovering all sorts of crap in my tape store that actually sounds good now, after about fifty years.

:)

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A large tequila is required.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

OneWorld wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:52 pm I think music is like life itself. It isn't so much the final destination but the journey to that end

Spot on.
For every person making music wanting to make music.
Even if this journey results in anguish failure fustration years of waste. This is was their path.

::

Dashanna wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:25 am “Don't think about making art, just get it done....”
Andy Warhol

I dig this. Like RonSeal it does what it says on the tin lol.

::

Arpangel wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:10 am
We all have different goals, and uses for our creative pursuits, it depends how high you aim, and if you have the ability, music for some is a hobby, for others, it’s therapy, for others, it’s a profession.
You have to have a certain level of talent, or natural ability, to reach a high level, if you haven’t, it’s patently obvious, and it’s easy to spot, and point out or "criticise" Anyone can see that a person is then, either deluded, or very misguided, some people take on-board advice, some don’t, and spend their whole lives wasting their time, going up a dead end road.
Fine if we want to sit at home and make music just for us, but if you want to take it beyond that, there are certain standards you have to achieve, some are definable, like in classical music, some aren’t definable at all, if you’re an experimentalist, but you’ll know immediately, in both camps, when real talent exists, and when it doesn’t, and when, it’s worth pursuing.

One way to look at this is

Every person's music, is was their connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Thus no matter what level a musician is at, no one should ever dissuade them knock them from connecting to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Should they request help to get a song an instrumental to a certain standard then those that can help out, help out.

There's a billion tracks of so many diverse ideas online.

::

As music makers we reach for our own connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

Other persons music is their connection not our connection, thus their music is a hand me down connection when it reaches us.

::

These days since lockdown I'm more vested in reaching for my connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.
Whereas most of my life I was 90% vested in other musicians connections to the detriment of my own connection.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:26 pm [
Whereas most of my life I was 90% vested in other musicians connections to the detriment of my own connection.

That the bottom line of your post, and the most important one for me.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tea for two »

If we want our connection to the infinite source (sauce lol) of musical ideas to remain strong

Then we gotta stop being negatively judgemental as to people's musical ability ... this and that has limited little talent.

Else, we are only severing our connection by being negatively judgemental.
We are only proving ourself unworthy of our connection to the infinite source of musical ideas.

::

In practical terms as there are billion songs, instrumentals, online from styles all over the World, with such diverse ideas,
No person on Earth can even begin to make any bunk claim as to say ... this and that has limited to little talent.

Talk of "talent"
reminds me of a saying by Einstein "if you judge a fish by it's ability to climb, then it will live its whole life believing it is stupid."

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Tech has made this more possible.

::

Also as Salieri in the film Amadeus, wishing why not me, why can't I be as xyz, I wish i could do as xyz,
is covetousness and discontent with our lot.
This too is severing our connection, making us unworthy of what we were given from the infinite source of musical ideas.

::

Returning to Belief in our music.

If we wish to keep our Belief strong, to keep strong our connection to the infinite source of musical ideas,
then it is to make the best of our lot content with what we been given including crafting practicing working to make ourself better,
without being negatively judgemental on anyone else's musical ability, without being covetous of anyone else's musical ability.

::

(Took me a Long while to arrive at this, as I did the opposite to this to my detriment).
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

This "infinite source of musical ideas"
Reminds me of the idea that music flows through us, from somewhere, heavenly, sacred or devine, we’ve been chosen as a conduit of transmission, allowing us a glimpse of heaven.
Who does the choosing?
Talent? It does exist, it may exist in ways that we aren’t used to describing it, like Autism, Asperger’s, these sometimes disturbing conditions can produce interesting ability’s in those that are in various parts of the spectrum.
Also, you don’t have to be a nice person, in any way, to be creative, some of the biggest a-holes I’ve ever met have been the most talented and gifted.
I have no opinions on where our music comes from, I simply don’t know, and I simply, don’t care.
We can wax lyrical about this for an eternity, all I know is that I do what I do, and I’ll do it until the day I die, I'm not a judgemental person, but some of us seem to be better than others at doing a lot of things, and those that criticise, on a professional level, seem to be good at f**k-all most of the time.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by MOF »

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

MOF wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 pm One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by MOF »

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I think you’ve missed my point Arpangel, the cake is the creation part, the icing is the praise/payment.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Nik Harrison »

There are certainly options as to how belief in the music we make can be developed.

'Talent' is a difficult word to use, and it can generate a sticking point for many people for a number of reasons. It's essentially conceptual 'pre-determined capability' which isn't helpful.

One thing that can help a lot is to separate creative work into two areas. These are 'art', and 'craft'.

The 'art' of creativity is finding inspiration and innate creative impulse to make something. It can be what some people describe as art 'falling in our lap'.

The 'craft' of creativity is a different matter. This is the use of creative tools, principles, musical devices, known orchestral arrangement techniques which offer certain timbral qualities or effects, register, keys, tempos, seeking 'balance' within sections etc...

I'm not a talented musician. Knowledge and skills didn't come easily to me at all and it took other kids at school much less time to achieve a basic grasp of the piano/keyboard and guitar (my two main instruments) but I really wanted to be able to do it so I practiced and I worked very hard. I only have small hands so my reach is pre-determined, but they are the tools that I have, so they are what I work with and what I use.

I think of the size of my hands as being a good analogy for my creative work. I know that I'm not going to ever write 'Mr Tambourine Man', or a Leonard Cohen song... I can't 'reach' those things, but I can 'craft' music. I studied composition. I went to university and studied contemporary music, bought the books and read as much as I could about how to 'craft' music well.

What I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

MOF wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:59 pm
One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I think you’ve missed my point Arpangel, the cake is the creation part, the icing is the praise/payment.


I think we’re in a bit of a cake icing, icing cake, type cake situation :)
I think my cake is a layer cake, lots of fruit like strawberry’s oranges and fresh cream, but I’m a bit short on sponge, I’d describe my music and my outlook more like a trifle, than a cake.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Nik Harrison wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:08 pmWhat I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.

I think this (well the whole post actually) is very close to my feelings on it.
Except I'm not so sure about my stuff not being rubbish.
But I like it, and I think it's as good as I can do.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by RichardT »

blinddrew wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 12:33 pm
Nik Harrison wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:08 pmWhat I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.

I think this (well the whole post actually) is very close to my feelings on it.
Except I'm not so sure about my stuff not being rubbish.
But I like it, and I think it's as good as I can do.

I agree too! If I think it’s good and I couldn’t do any better then I might as well release it. One thing I’d add is that I’m sometimes tempted to include tracks that are space-fillers, just to complete a project. I try and resist this now!

Looking back at earlier work, there are things I’d do differently, but I don’t think there’s any way around that. It’s only by doing music production that we get better at it.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by ManFromGlass »

You can’t even include the word rubbish in the equation.
If you like the final result or grew somehow from it’s production then that’s enough or should be.
If it was shit you would have deleted it. If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.
My mantra remains “shut up and do it” and I still do. And I definitely delete a number of them that don’t resonate with me even if the core idea was inspirational at the time.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by RichardT »

ManFromGlass wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:11 pm You can’t even include the word rubbish in the equation.
If you like the final result or grew somehow from it’s production then that’s enough or should be.
If it was shit you would have deleted it. If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.
My mantra remains “shut up and do it” and I still do. And I definitely delete a number of them that don’t resonate with me even if the core idea was inspirational at the time.

Context is important too - I’ve rejected quite a few tracks only to find later that they actually work when they’re surrounded by other music.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by OneWorld »

Quote from Stevie Wonder.......

Q "Which is the best song you have ever written?"
A "The next one"

Quote from Dolly Parton....

"I've written about 2000 songs, most of them are duffers, but it just took one song to make me a millionaire, what's wrong with that?"
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by OneWorld »

tea for two wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:13 am

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.


Welcome to Planet Earth, if someone gets to you because of a bit of sniping then you're on the wrong planet, it's the human condition.

In my case if I get any of that 'bullying' I have an 'Off' button for my head and they can snipe till the cows come home, whatever scratches their itch.

If I like my music and it does the trick for me, well I might have a small fan base of just one person - me, but at least I have a loyal fan, what more could I want? Because after all, who exactly do we write music for?
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by awjoe »

ManFromGlass wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:11 pm If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.

I used to lean towards this view, but now tend more to the 'if you try to satisfy both you and your listener, you're golden' take on things. I understand how you have to find your integrity through willingness to go your own way and to hell with the critics and 'no way am I going to pander or sell out'. They're both valid approaches, depending on who you are and where you're at. But I think the motivation that serves the greater good *is* the greater good.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by tacitus »

I’m no virtuoso like Bach or Vivaldi, but like them I’ve been a jobbing musician all my life. I started writing music for others to play and carried on doing that. I still do that so it follows I would want them to enjoy playing it.

My creativity comes and goes; I can totally recommend keeping the failures for a while then revisiting them. I’ll often be able to make something of it later.

But self-belief is important for motivation. If I don’t get inspiration, I’ll make an arrangement of either my own or some other composer’s music. As indeed did Bach and Vivaldi. A number of Bach’s concertos are remodelled Vivaldi pieces. Bach admired the Italian style and Vivaldi was a master of it. In no way did he write one concerto 400 (not 200!) times. Every one I’ve heard has its own character and style, perfectly suited to his own virtuoso playing or that of his pupils and clients, accordingly.

And I’ve spent a lot of my life with depression (hence my recent gender change) so I know how it fu**s your creativity.

I realise that it’s not exactly like that for a bedroom musician or similar, but I still don’t see the point of writing just for yourself. I’ve been commissioned to compose pieces for large ensembles and if that doesn’t keep you regular, nothing will!
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by ManFromGlass »

One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

ManFromGlass wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:08 am One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.

I can’t stop "having something to say" I've got musical diarrhoea at the moment, but whether people are listening, or even understand what I’m trying to say, is another matter all together.
Maybe meaning, is in the ear of the beholder.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by MOF »

One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.

Some people write from personal experience e.g. John Lennon, others write as observers i.e. imagining what other people’s lives are like e.g. Paul McCartney.
Songs don’t have to be autobiographical and after a while we’d run out of things to say about ourselves.
I tend to do a bit of both, sometimes it’s certain phrases I like that I’ll put into a song but they’re nothing to do with my life.
I suppose you could say a personal lyric is more likely to be sung with conviction but equally a good singer will have empathy for the character(s) in the fictional lyrics and deliver a vocal with feeling.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Nik Harrison »

Extract from one of my books:

Assessing a musical composition (or any piece of art) is like assessing a bonfire. How ‘good’ any bonfire is can’t be assessed by how much wood is on it, how big it is, how hot it is, how long it lasts, or how captivating it looks. These things have different significance and importance different people, so there’s no clear cut ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. With this in mind, it stands to reason that if we are to embark on composition, that we may as well (and indeed should) be as experimental, confident, bold, and honest that we can be. On account of human nature, whatever we may produce simply won’t be for certain people, although this isn’t something that we should concern ourselves with. Much better that we focus on our music (indeed ‘bonfire’) for the people for whom it does resonate than to approach our work with intentions to appease naysayers or critics...

Similarly: Comparing art is like comparing journeys. They don't start or end in the same place, nor travel between those places for the same reason.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by Arpangel »

Nik Harrison wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:34 pm Extract from one of my books:

Assessing a musical composition (or any piece of art) is like assessing a bonfire. How ‘good’ any bonfire is can’t be assessed by how much wood is on it, how big it is, how hot it is, how long it lasts, or how captivating it looks. These things have different significance and importance different people, so there’s no clear cut ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. With this in mind, it stands to reason that if we are to embark on composition, that we may as well (and indeed should) be as experimental, confident, bold, and honest that we can be. On account of human nature, whatever we may produce simply won’t be for certain people, although this isn’t something that we should concern ourselves with. Much better that we focus on our music (indeed ‘bonfire’) for the people for whom it does resonate than to approach our work with intentions to appease naysayers or critics...

Similarly: Comparing art is like comparing journeys. They don't start or end in the same place, nor travel between those places for the same reason.

It’s easy to make comparisons, in a commercial world, especially, very easy.
The brief? does it compare well enough with the established genre? are all the boxers ticked ? There are definite reference points that you have to look at.
In classical music, it’s simply a case of is the technique good enough, and simply again, just don’t play any wrong notes, if you do, it’s bad, if you don’t, it’s good.
Jazz? that’s a whole other ball game, you can pull and stretch it’s boundaries beyond recognition, and yes, it gets very subjective.
Then when we get into abstract experimental, or whatever you want to call it, anything goes, it’s just a case if expressing yourself any way you want, or unfortunately, in some cases, getting away with as much as you can.
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Re: Belief in the Music we make

Post by RichardT »

I don’t agree with you about classical music Tony - musicality and interpretation are absolutely vital to a good performance.
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