Belief in the Music we make

[Arpangel]

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

[MOF]

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I think you’ve missed my point Arpangel, the cake is the creation part, the icing is the praise/payment.

[Nik Harrison]

There are certainly options as to how belief in the music we make can be developed.

'Talent' is a difficult word to use, and it can generate a sticking point for many people for a number of reasons. It's essentially conceptual 'pre-determined capability' which isn't helpful.

One thing that can help a lot is to separate creative work into two areas. These are 'art', and 'craft'.

The 'art' of creativity is finding inspiration and innate creative impulse to make something. It can be what some people describe as art 'falling in our lap'.

The 'craft' of creativity is a different matter. This is the use of creative tools, principles, musical devices, known orchestral arrangement techniques which offer certain timbral qualities or effects, register, keys, tempos, seeking 'balance' within sections etc...

I'm not a talented musician. Knowledge and skills didn't come easily to me at all and it took other kids at school much less time to achieve a basic grasp of the piano/keyboard and guitar (my two main instruments) but I really wanted to be able to do it so I practiced and I worked very hard. I only have small hands so my reach is pre-determined, but they are the tools that I have, so they are what I work with and what I use.

I think of the size of my hands as being a good analogy for my creative work. I know that I'm not going to ever write 'Mr Tambourine Man', or a Leonard Cohen song... I can't 'reach' those things, but I can 'craft' music. I studied composition. I went to university and studied contemporary music, bought the books and read as much as I could about how to 'craft' music well.

What I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.

[Arpangel]

One man’s meat…..
If you enjoy creating your music and some people like and, even better, pay you for what you’ve done then that’s your validation.

Yes, it is, whether we like it or not, but it’s the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

I think you’ve missed my point Arpangel, the cake is the creation part, the icing is the praise/payment.

I think we’re in a bit of a cake icing, icing cake, type cake situation
I think my cake is a layer cake, lots of fruit like strawberry’s oranges and fresh cream, but I’m a bit short on sponge, I’d describe my music and my outlook more like a trifle, than a cake.

[Drew Stephenson]

What I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.

I think this (well the whole post actually) is very close to my feelings on it.
Except I'm not so sure about my stuff not being rubbish.
But I like it, and I think it's as good as I can do.

[RichardT]

What I produce may not be groundbreaking, but it's most definitely not 'rubbish'. It's what I have crafted over time, and what I can honestly share with pride.

I think this (well the whole post actually) is very close to my feelings on it.
Except I'm not so sure about my stuff not being rubbish.
But I like it, and I think it's as good as I can do.

I agree too! If I think it’s good and I couldn’t do any better then I might as well release it. One thing I’d add is that I’m sometimes tempted to include tracks that are space-fillers, just to complete a project. I try and resist this now!

Looking back at earlier work, there are things I’d do differently, but I don’t think there’s any way around that. It’s only by doing music production that we get better at it.

[ManFromGlass]

You can’t even include the word rubbish in the equation.
If you like the final result or grew somehow from it’s production then that’s enough or should be.
If it was shit you would have deleted it. If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.
My mantra remains “shut up and do it” and I still do. And I definitely delete a number of them that don’t resonate with me even if the core idea was inspirational at the time.

[RichardT]

You can’t even include the word rubbish in the equation.
If you like the final result or grew somehow from it’s production then that’s enough or should be.
If it was shit you would have deleted it. If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.
My mantra remains “shut up and do it” and I still do. And I definitely delete a number of them that don’t resonate with me even if the core idea was inspirational at the time.

Context is important too - I’ve rejected quite a few tracks only to find later that they actually work when they’re surrounded by other music.

[OneWorld]

Quote from Stevie Wonder.......

Q "Which is the best song you have ever written?"
A "The next one"

Quote from Dolly Parton....

"I've written about 2000 songs, most of them are duffers, but it just took one song to make me a millionaire, what's wrong with that?"

[OneWorld]

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.

Welcome to Planet Earth, if someone gets to you because of a bit of sniping then you're on the wrong planet, it's the human condition.

In my case if I get any of that 'bullying' I have an 'Off' button for my head and they can snipe till the cows come home, whatever scratches their itch.

If I like my music and it does the trick for me, well I might have a small fan base of just one person - me, but at least I have a loyal fan, what more could I want? Because after all, who exactly do we write music for?

[awjoe]

If you are creating for other’s approval then I would take a look at that motivation, but even then I suspect some wonderful work resulted from that.

I used to lean towards this view, but now tend more to the 'if you try to satisfy both you and your listener, you're golden' take on things. I understand how you have to find your integrity through willingness to go your own way and to hell with the critics and 'no way am I going to pander or sell out'. They're both valid approaches, depending on who you are and where you're at. But I think the motivation that serves the greater good *is* the greater good.

[tacitus]

I’m no virtuoso like Bach or Vivaldi, but like them I’ve been a jobbing musician all my life. I started writing music for others to play and carried on doing that. I still do that so it follows I would want them to enjoy playing it.

My creativity comes and goes; I can totally recommend keeping the failures for a while then revisiting them. I’ll often be able to make something of it later.

But self-belief is important for motivation. If I don’t get inspiration, I’ll make an arrangement of either my own or some other composer’s music. As indeed did Bach and Vivaldi. A number of Bach’s concertos are remodelled Vivaldi pieces. Bach admired the Italian style and Vivaldi was a master of it. In no way did he write one concerto 400 (not 200!) times. Every one I’ve heard has its own character and style, perfectly suited to his own virtuoso playing or that of his pupils and clients, accordingly.

And I’ve spent a lot of my life with depression (hence my recent gender change) so I know how it fu**s your creativity.

I realise that it’s not exactly like that for a bedroom musician or similar, but I still don’t see the point of writing just for yourself. I’ve been commissioned to compose pieces for large ensembles and if that doesn’t keep you regular, nothing will!

[ManFromGlass]

One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.

[Arpangel]

One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.

I can’t stop "having something to say" I've got musical diarrhoea at the moment, but whether people are listening, or even understand what I’m trying to say, is another matter all together.
Maybe meaning, is in the ear of the beholder.

[MOF]

One day you might see the point of writing for yourself. I have found nothing more difficult for a number of reasons. One was the fear I would discover I had nothing to say. I’ll think on the others for a bit.

Some people write from personal experience e.g. John Lennon, others write as observers i.e. imagining what other people’s lives are like e.g. Paul McCartney.
Songs don’t have to be autobiographical and after a while we’d run out of things to say about ourselves.
I tend to do a bit of both, sometimes it’s certain phrases I like that I’ll put into a song but they’re nothing to do with my life.
I suppose you could say a personal lyric is more likely to be sung with conviction but equally a good singer will have empathy for the character(s) in the fictional lyrics and deliver a vocal with feeling.

[Nik Harrison]

Extract from one of my books:

Assessing a musical composition (or any piece of art) is like assessing a bonfire. How ‘good’ any bonfire is can’t be assessed by how much wood is on it, how big it is, how hot it is, how long it lasts, or how captivating it looks. These things have different significance and importance different people, so there’s no clear cut ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. With this in mind, it stands to reason that if we are to embark on composition, that we may as well (and indeed should) be as experimental, confident, bold, and honest that we can be. On account of human nature, whatever we may produce simply won’t be for certain people, although this isn’t something that we should concern ourselves with. Much better that we focus on our music (indeed ‘bonfire’) for the people for whom it does resonate than to approach our work with intentions to appease naysayers or critics...

Similarly: Comparing art is like comparing journeys. They don't start or end in the same place, nor travel between those places for the same reason.

[Arpangel]

Extract from one of my books:

Assessing a musical composition (or any piece of art) is like assessing a bonfire. How ‘good’ any bonfire is can’t be assessed by how much wood is on it, how big it is, how hot it is, how long it lasts, or how captivating it looks. These things have different significance and importance different people, so there’s no clear cut ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. With this in mind, it stands to reason that if we are to embark on composition, that we may as well (and indeed should) be as experimental, confident, bold, and honest that we can be. On account of human nature, whatever we may produce simply won’t be for certain people, although this isn’t something that we should concern ourselves with. Much better that we focus on our music (indeed ‘bonfire’) for the people for whom it does resonate than to approach our work with intentions to appease naysayers or critics...

Similarly: Comparing art is like comparing journeys. They don't start or end in the same place, nor travel between those places for the same reason.

It’s easy to make comparisons, in a commercial world, especially, very easy.
The brief? does it compare well enough with the established genre? are all the boxers ticked ? There are definite reference points that you have to look at.
In classical music, it’s simply a case of is the technique good enough, and simply again, just don’t play any wrong notes, if you do, it’s bad, if you don’t, it’s good.
Jazz? that’s a whole other ball game, you can pull and stretch it’s boundaries beyond recognition, and yes, it gets very subjective.
Then when we get into abstract experimental, or whatever you want to call it, anything goes, it’s just a case if expressing yourself any way you want, or unfortunately, in some cases, getting away with as much as you can.

[RichardT]

I don’t agree with you about classical music Tony - musicality and interpretation are absolutely vital to a good performance.

[RichardT]

Extract from one of my books:

Assessing a musical composition (or any piece of art) is like assessing a bonfire. How ‘good’ any bonfire is can’t be assessed by how much wood is on it, how big it is, how hot it is, how long it lasts, or how captivating it looks. These things have different significance and importance different people, so there’s no clear cut ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. With this in mind, it stands to reason that if we are to embark on composition, that we may as well (and indeed should) be as experimental, confident, bold, and honest that we can be. On account of human nature, whatever we may produce simply won’t be for certain people, although this isn’t something that we should concern ourselves with. Much better that we focus on our music (indeed ‘bonfire’) for the people for whom it does resonate than to approach our work with intentions to appease naysayers or critics...

Similarly: Comparing art is like comparing journeys. They don't start or end in the same place, nor travel between those places for the same reason.

That’s good! I think in my case at least it’s an advantage that I’m not famous enough to have critics - I think it would be very hard to ignore them.

John Prine once used a rhyming dictionary to look up ‘critics’ and came up with ‘syphilitic paralytics’ - which clearly captured his feelings about some of them.

[Arpangel]

I don’t agree with you about classical music Tony - musicality and interpretation are absolutely vital to a good performance.

I agree, but, you have to know the notes otherwise you’re not even on the starting blocks, the rest is personal preference I guess.
I love straight mechanical versions of Bach, like Helmut Walcha, whereas Alan Wicks was more a case of “variations on a theme of Bach” both were extremely gifted players with completely different approaches preferred by different people, neither were bad players.

[RichardT]

I don’t agree with you about classical music Tony - musicality and interpretation are absolutely vital to a good performance.

I agree, but, you have to know the notes otherwise you’re not even on the starting blocks, the rest is personal preference I guess.
I love straight mechanical versions of Bach, like Helmut Walcha, whereas Alan Wicks was more a case of “variations on a theme of Bach” both were extremely gifted players with completely different approaches preferred by different people, neither were bad players.

I've always been struck by the difference in sound world between Bach's keyboard works and his orchestral ones. The latter are full of emotion and expression, whereas his keyboard works are often played quite rigidly. The scores don't have any dynamic markings and sometimes I think people interpret that to mean they should be played without any dynamics to speak of. Partly also because limited expression was possible on the keyboards of Bach’s day.

Personally I think that's a great mistake and they should be played with feeling - not in the manner of Chopin etc of course, but something more appropriate.

[Arpangel]

I don’t agree with you about classical music Tony - musicality and interpretation are absolutely vital to a good performance.

I agree, but, you have to know the notes otherwise you’re not even on the starting blocks, the rest is personal preference I guess.
I love straight mechanical versions of Bach, like Helmut Walcha, whereas Alan Wicks was more a case of “variations on a theme of Bach” both were extremely gifted players with completely different approaches preferred by different people, neither were bad players.

I've always been struck by the difference in sound world between Bach's keyboard works and his orchestral ones. The latter are full of emotion and expression, whereas his keyboard works are often played quite rigidly. The scores don't have any dynamic markings and sometimes I think people interpret that to mean they should be played without any dynamics to speak of. Partly also because limited expression was possible on the keyboards of Bach’s day.

Personally I think that's a great mistake and they should be played with feeling - not in the manner of Chopin etc of course, but something more appropriate.

I think Glen Gould gets it right, his version of the Chromatic Fantasy is beyond, totally.
The emotions in Bach's organ music are difficult to define, they are not, sentimental in any way whatsoever, so where do you go from there?
They don’t have the same grand view of life and the universe as Beethoven does, they are to me, a cold realisation, of life, with no frills, staring it straightening the eye, heaven, and hell. Any form of unnecessary ornament serums crass, and tacky, and definitely irreverent.

[soundesigner]

I firmly believe in my music. It might not change the World but it gives me enormous sense of accomplishment in my life. The rest is a bonus.

[OneWorld]

I firmly believe in my music. It might not change the World but it gives me enormous sense of accomplishment in my life. The rest is a bonus.

Spot on, a good point well made