low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by Vlaaing Peerd »

Thanks for all the comments. It's mostly been a job of choosing where to compromise yesterday. Cut a bit off from the Rhodes without making it noticeably skinnier than on the other tracks, bass a little more subby (strange how scooping out the 300hz range often works so well with bass).

Guitar EQ-ed to the level where it almost tilts over to losing the required sound.

By cutting a bit more on the guitar when other parts should have more focus I manage to somewhat preserve the tick jazz octave sound. While there is more separation, there is less gel between the Rhodes and bass now though.

I've gotten closer but not entirely satisfied.

The Elf wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:52 pm if you're having to fight to make everything fit that fundamentally calls into question the arrangement.

Well, tonally the instruments are not much in each other's way apart from a few notes that cross during the solo. I just seem to need an awful amount of low frequency on the guitar to keep that typical sound.

I was also not to keen to ask them to re-arrange, it's their repertoire and I just offered to record it. Besides that, when they play it live, it works out. So I feel that I'm making my mixing problem theirs rather than something is really wrong with their song.

I did however call the keyboard player about it today and was open to come over this weekend. Until then I'll fiddle around with it, so that hopefully rearranging the piano eventually won't be needed.
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by awjoe »

Vlaaing Peerd wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:26 pm Besides that, when they play it live, it works out.

A question for my betters about this. This is the bit I don't get. Why, if it works out live, does it not work when recorded? What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by Vlaaing Peerd »

RichardT wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:22 pm
ManFromGlass wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:57 pm
I wish they did. Some big band guitar players are not so sensitive to the needs of the ensemble! Grant Green, however, used to play with an almost acoustic sound where the string noise was a big part of his sound and it had very little body.

Yes, but Grant Green's sound was particularly bright and not the tone we are looking for here. I really want to preserve that and is also the sound the guitarist wants.

It's also not a big ensemble but a quintet, drums, bass, piano, guitar and a female singer. So I'm not sure why this quite commonly used guitar sound is giving me so much problems.

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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by Vlaaing Peerd »

awjoe wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:51 pm What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?

That is a valid question here and for which I must owe you a reply until I have done some more listening. I'll get back about this one.
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by MOF »

Why, if it works out live, does it not work when recorded? What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?

Some context needed here, is it the acoustic sound you hear with them in the same room or over a PA or a live mix straight to stereo?
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by RichardT »

I sympathise! I play in a big band as a keys player and I’ve noticed that piano and traditional jazz guitar sounds often collide massively and create muddiness. If the two players are playing in the same register you’re almost certain to have problems with your mix.
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by awjoe »

Do you notice the muddiness of the collision when you're playing live?
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The worst is elevator versions of good songs. All the life sucked out of them in a most amusing and yet irritating way.

Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by RichardT »

awjoe wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:25 pm Do you notice the muddiness of the collision when you're playing live?

Yes, very much!
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by resistorman »

Arrangement is everything.
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by blinddrew »

Reading SOS and trying to learn mixing really opened my ears to the muddiness of our band's sound. We've spent a lot of time subsequently rearranging songs and cutting low mids to make acoustic space. It sounds better and we can rehearse quieter. :thumbup:

If only we had a gig... :(

;)
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by Martin Walker »

Ironically I was reading this this morning concerning Steve Howe's ES175D:

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/i- ... ber-one-ax

Image

Relevant comment:

"How do you tame the 175 onstage?

It might be just about where you set your bass level on your amp. If you’ve got that too high, this guitar is going to give you all the trouble it’s known for."

Martin
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Re: low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

Post by RichardT »

Martin Walker wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:15 pm Ironically I was reading this this morning concerning Steve Howe's ES175D:

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/i- ... ber-one-ax

Image

Relevant comment:

"How do you tame the 175 onstage?

It might be just about where you set your bass level on your amp. If you’ve got that too high, this guitar is going to give you all the trouble it’s known for."

Martin

Well exactly! How right he is.
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