low end on jazzy guitar won't fit in the mix

[Vlaaing Peerd]

Thanks for all the comments. It's mostly been a job of choosing where to compromise yesterday. Cut a bit off from the Rhodes without making it noticeably skinnier than on the other tracks, bass a little more subby (strange how scooping out the 300hz range often works so well with bass).

Guitar EQ-ed to the level where it almost tilts over to losing the required sound.

By cutting a bit more on the guitar when other parts should have more focus I manage to somewhat preserve the tick jazz octave sound. While there is more separation, there is less gel between the Rhodes and bass now though.

I've gotten closer but not entirely satisfied.

if you're having to fight to make everything fit that fundamentally calls into question the arrangement.

Well, tonally the instruments are not much in each other's way apart from a few notes that cross during the solo. I just seem to need an awful amount of low frequency on the guitar to keep that typical sound.

I was also not to keen to ask them to re-arrange, it's their repertoire and I just offered to record it. Besides that, when they play it live, it works out. So I feel that I'm making my mixing problem theirs rather than something is really wrong with their song.

I did however call the keyboard player about it today and was open to come over this weekend. Until then I'll fiddle around with it, so that hopefully rearranging the piano eventually won't be needed.

[awjoe]

Besides that, when they play it live, it works out.

A question for my betters about this. This is the bit I don't get. Why, if it works out live, does it not work when recorded? What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?

[Vlaaing Peerd]

I wish they did. Some big band guitar players are not so sensitive to the needs of the ensemble! Grant Green, however, used to play with an almost acoustic sound where the string noise was a big part of his sound and it had very little body.

Yes, but Grant Green's sound was particularly bright and not the tone we are looking for here. I really want to preserve that and is also the sound the guitarist wants.

It's also not a big ensemble but a quintet, drums, bass, piano, guitar and a female singer. So I'm not sure why this quite commonly used guitar sound is giving me so much problems.

[Vlaaing Peerd]

What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?

That is a valid question here and for which I must owe you a reply until I have done some more listening. I'll get back about this one.

[MOF]

Why, if it works out live, does it not work when recorded? What is it about recording that produces masking when the live situation doesn't produce masking?

Some context needed here, is it the acoustic sound you hear with them in the same room or over a PA or a live mix straight to stereo?

[RichardT]

I sympathise! I play in a big band as a keys player and I’ve noticed that piano and traditional jazz guitar sounds often collide massively and create muddiness. If the two players are playing in the same register you’re almost certain to have problems with your mix.

[awjoe]

Do you notice the muddiness of the collision when you're playing live?

[RichardT]

Do you notice the muddiness of the collision when you're playing live?

Yes, very much!

[resistorman]

Arrangement is everything.

[Drew Stephenson]

Reading SOS and trying to learn mixing really opened my ears to the muddiness of our band's sound. We've spent a lot of time subsequently rearranging songs and cutting low mids to make acoustic space. It sounds better and we can rehearse quieter.

If only we had a gig...

[Martin Walker]

Ironically I was reading this this morning concerning Steve Howe's ES175D:

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/i- ... ber-one-ax



Relevant comment:

"How do you tame the 175 onstage?

It might be just about where you set your bass level on your amp. If you’ve got that too high, this guitar is going to give you all the trouble it’s known for."

Martin

[RichardT]

Ironically I was reading this this morning concerning Steve Howe's ES175D:

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/i- ... ber-one-ax



Relevant comment:

"How do you tame the 175 onstage?

It might be just about where you set your bass level on your amp. If you’ve got that too high, this guitar is going to give you all the trouble it’s known for."

Martin

Well exactly! How right he is.

[Terrible.dee]

No, it's not that it won't "Fit in the mix"

It's that your song, or your part are improperly arranged.

Seeing as how your chief concern is getting the "Low end" of your "Jazzy Guitar" into the spotlight....I'm going to put my money on the latter.

So consequently, I'm going to suggest that you don't get it.

Either you are showcasing the composition, or the sound of your guitar.

If it's the sound of your guitar you care about, I suggest you record that and nothing else.

[Sam Inglis]

No, it's not that it won't "Fit in the mix"

It's that your song, or your part are improperly arranged.

Seeing as how your chief concern is getting the "Low end" of your "Jazzy Guitar" into the spotlight....I'm going to put my money on the latter.

So consequently, I'm going to suggest that you don't get it.

Either you are showcasing the composition, or the sound of your guitar.

If it's the sound of your guitar you care about, I suggest you record that and nothing else.

I'm not convinced you have read the OP properly... the poster is trying to mix a friend's track. It's not "his" guitar.

Without having heard it, it's hard to say for sure whether it's an arrangement problem or a mix problem or both. But it seems dogmatic to insist that an arrangement which happens to have more than one instrument playing in the same register is necessarily bad. Rock bands typically have bass guitar, kick drum, floor tom and more all competing in that same register and we make it work.

[Terrible.dee]

No, it's not that it won't "Fit in the mix"

It's that your song, or your part are improperly arranged.

Seeing as how your chief concern is getting the "Low end" of your "Jazzy Guitar" into the spotlight....I'm going to put my money on the latter.

So consequently, I'm going to suggest that you don't get it.

Either you are showcasing the composition, or the sound of your guitar.

If it's the sound of your guitar you care about, I suggest you record that and nothing else.

I'm not convinced you have read the OP properly... the poster is trying to mix a friend's track. It's not "his" guitar.

Without having heard it, it's hard to say for sure whether it's an arrangement problem or a mix problem or both. But it seems dogmatic to insist that an arrangement which happens to have more than one instrument playing in the same register is necessarily bad. Rock bands typically have bass guitar, kick drum, floor tom and more all competing in that same register and we make it work.

It's ALWAYS an arrangement problem!

All this "Cut this frequency in the kick and boost it in the bass." Garbage mixing advice has has done nothing but confuse people.

You have to RECORD WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR!

You have to HAVE ALL ELEMENTS WORKING TOGETHER AS A WHOLE!

You do that by ARRANGING your song properly. (Assuming the song is half decent, if it's not, nothing can help you.)

The low end of a guitar the top end of a skin flute....doesn't matter, how is it contributing to the WHOLE!

Mixing should be easy, because the real work should have been done before anything was recorded.

[RichardT]

Oh dear, we have a troll…….

[Drew Stephenson]

Indeed we do, and a shouty one at that.

[Eddy Deegan]

Your concerns are noted folks.

Words have been had and the hope is that they are well received.

[Drew Stephenson]

Thanks Mods.

[Vlaaing Peerd]

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback everyone.

To the question why it was working live...not entirely sure. I think you are more forgiving when listening to a non-repeatable live song and I suspect the PA has something to do with it. Also live the guitar drowns a little in the mix and is turned up quite a bit when the solo starts, something I needed to suppress a little in the mix so levels are closer to each other.

Harmonically speaking neither the keyboard or the bass is playing the same notes as the guitar, so I wasn't to keen on changing the arrangement, especially because it's not mine. I just needed to get the bits recorded and mixed.

Of course the arrangement is what makes the song, but that sound added so much to the atmosphere it was also not something we wanted to change.

Eventually what we did was:
- the guitar could handle a bit more mids, which made it generally more audible so overall volume could go down.
- adding a tiny amount of drive and reducing the extra high end, which made the guitar tone a little more consistent in timbres
- the keyboard player re-recorded his track, occasionally playing single octaves instead of doubles and turning around a few chords.
- the tiddly bit editing, scooping out a bit of low where the guitar isn't important and putting it back when it was.
- sidechain compression to duck the keyboards a tiny bit when guitar was playing.

Each of above was done without real noticeable change, but added up it made the space for the bass in the guitar.

Definitely pleased with the improvement, but still a bit unsatisfied. I think it should have been possible without changing the keyboards. That said, I'll put this track aside till I'm done with the others. I need to not listen to it for a while.

It's strange that I initially thought the guitar could just be recorded as is and slap it in the mix, but eventually has cost me quite some time to get it (closer to) right.