A good point, well made

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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Murray B »

Sam Spoons wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:03 pm I bought a Headrush Gigboard at the beginning of lockdown last year. I like it a lot but I can't say I've got it to sound as good as my, fairly modest, pedalboard yet. I will persevere as I don't want to end up sounding like a guy I gigged with a couple of years ago, he had a Helix and a pair of 8" FRFR boxes, sounded pretty feeble compared to my 18 watt combo and a Tube Screamer :headbang:

I can't speak re the workflow on the Headrush, but with my newish Pod Go the only way I eventually got to the sounds I like was ditching the idea of setting up the sounds on my headphones and tweaking stuff at gig volume, the Cab high and low pass setting were key to getting something that actually sounded like a guitar amp. Also for me, using the cab module at the end of the signal chain made everything sound more guitar amp like - so the reverbs and delays were going through a speaker sim instead of being super clean. Is it as good as my board and amp? Nope - but it's close enough for me to not worry about it too much and works very well with the PA.
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Dynamic Mike »

Murray B wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:08 pm I can't speak re the workflow on the Headrush, but with my newish Pod Go the only way I eventually got to the sounds I like was ditching the idea of setting up the sounds on my headphones and tweaking stuff at gig volume, the Cab high and low pass setting were key to getting something that actually sounded like a guitar amp. Also for me, using the cab module at the end of the signal chain made everything sound more guitar amp like - so the reverbs and delays were going through a speaker sim instead of being super clean. Is it as good as my board and amp? Nope - but it's close enough for me to not worry about it too much and works very well with the PA.

This has pretty much been my Pod Go experience too. Awsome sounds created on headphones (espcially cleanish tones) sounded flat & lifeless through the main outs without tweaking the Cab high/low pass settings. Although you can easily save these as snapshots, it still felt like I was doing everything twice & it's a bit of a faff unless you're editing via the software. But until you posted this I'd never thought of sticking the cab at the end of the chain instead of directly after the amp. I don't know why because that's where it is in real life!

To be honest none of the compromises made by the Pod Go from the full fat Helix bother me in the slightest. I've never struggled for DSP, I won't be dual amping & I'll probably never use 75% of the available amp/fx emulations anyway. Naming snapshots & staggered switches would be nice & as a left hooker I'd like the vol/wha on the opposite side but with Helix tones for silly money it seems churlish to complain.
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by The Elf »

Sam Spoons wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:03 pm I bought a Headrush Gigboard at the beginning of lockdown last year. I like it a lot but I can't say I've got it to sound as good as my, fairly modest, pedalboard yet. I will persevere as I don't want to end up sounding like a guy I gigged with a couple of years ago, he had a Helix and a pair of 8" FRFR boxes, sounded pretty feeble compared to my 18 watt combo and a Tube Screamer :headbang:

All about the user, I'd say. There's no reason for a Helix to sound thin if you know what you're doing (cabs notwithstanding).

I have a collection of presets from guitarists I've worked with. Some of them exhibit a total lack of understanding (and sound odd), while others sound simply stunning. That's the thing with the Helix, and similar - they give you enough options to sound like a god, or a fly in a bottle. After that it's about your taste and your ability. And far be it from me to question some of these guys - it's like questioning someone's religion! Interesting that the strongest opinions seem to be from the ones with the oddest signal chains...

Your combo and TS are fine, but you can't switch in a whole new chain of effects at the click of a switch - or stereo delay, or reverb, for example, or choose a different amp/cab per song. That's important for some acts. And how it sounds from a cab sitting next to you is not *as* important (though it has a bearing, obviously) as it sounds out front. I've heard some mighty rigs also reduced to the 'fly in a bottle' by the time it reaches the audience!
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Sam Spoons »

The Elf wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:42 am
Sam Spoons wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:03 pm I bought a Headrush Gigboard at the beginning of lockdown last year. I like it a lot but I can't say I've got it to sound as good as my, fairly modest, pedalboard yet. I will persevere as I don't want to end up sounding like a guy I gigged with a couple of years ago, he had a Helix and a pair of 8" FRFR boxes, sounded pretty feeble compared to my 18 watt combo and a Tube Screamer :headbang:

All about the user, I'd say. There's no reason for a Helix to sound thin if you know what you're doing (cabs notwithstanding).

No argument there, I'm not trying to suggest that Helix et al can't be made to sound great just that this particular guy hadn't managed it, (I'm not tech-phobic and for many years used a GX700/Marshall8008 rig).

Your combo and TS are fine, but you can't switch in a whole new chain of effects at the click of a switch - or stereo delay, or reverb, for example, or choose a different amp/cab per song. That's important for some acts.

Yup no argument there too.

And how it sounds from a cab sitting next to you is not *as* important (though it has a bearing, obviously) as it sounds out front.

No but for some players it makes it very hard to perform to 100% if the onstage sound is poor, I'm not precious but I certainly find it easier to play my best if my guitar sounds great to me.

I've heard some mighty rigs also reduced to the 'fly in a bottle' by the time it reaches the audience!

Me too but that said, if it sounds good on stage then it's the sound guy's job to make it sound good out front (said with both my guitarist hat and my sound tech hat on). It does still have to sound good on stage first though.

FWIW I will probably be continuing to use my 18 watt and be treating the Headrush like a pedalboard simply 'cos that's how I like to work, I know that's only using part of it's capabilities
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Random Guitarist »

Unusually for me I had someone say that my guitar had a really powerful sound at the weekend. I was surprised as I had left all the valves at home and gone out to play with a Helix and a Wharfdale titan 12. I'm not used to tone compliments and was a little taken a back.

I was waiting for a followup along the lines of 'I don't know how you got so many bees in that little jar', but it never came. :D
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Funkyflash5 »

The Elf wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:42 am Your combo and TS are fine, but you can't switch in a whole new chain of effects at the click of a switch - or stereo delay, or reverb, for example, or choose a different amp/cab per song. That's important for some acts.

That's broadly true, but with my ES-8 I certainly can set up to switch in a whole new chain of effects with one switch, while still being able to turn a knob with my toe if the creative moment calls for a different sound than planned in advance. Not that I have anything against digital in principal, I also have a Poly Beebo if I want to do Cab IRs or some convoluted interconnected signal path, but having physical controls at my toes is still worthwhile for how I work.
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by SecretSam »

Of course, if you spend a few hundred quid on a Voodoo Labs Ground Control, then you can indeed switch entire chains of effects with one stomp.

Although I would suggest that if you need a pedalboard to control your pedalboard, you may have lost sight of why you turned up in the first place.

Dan Patlansky, having been through many pedal experiments, opines that the optimum number of pedals is five. Beyond that, the complexity and signal degradation outweigh the benefits.

I don't recall the old masters using massive pedal boards, so the magic number five might be about right. Your thoughts?
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Murray B »

SecretSam wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:25 am Dan Patlansky, having been through many pedal experiments, opines that the optimum number of pedals is five. Beyond that, the complexity and signal degradation outweigh the benefits.

I don't recall the old masters using massive pedal boards, so the magic number five might be about right. Your thoughts?

That's interesting - I will of course agree as I have 5 pedals on my board - but I'm not counting the Tuner :shifty:
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by The Culprit »

My live gig experience is slightly different to the scenario discussed here, but it does fall under a similar circumstance.

I play just me and an acoustic and have never bothered about what equipment I use. Plug straight in to the desk, adjust the eq, reverb and levels to suit and away I go.

The thing that always carries me is the fact that I see it as my job to make sure everyone enjoys their night. That's ultimately what people appreciate.

There are lots of bands doing the circuit within the niche we occupy, a lot of them with a good sound and decent players, but some are guilty of just turning up and collecting their dough and it makes a huge difference to the atmosphere and people's experience of the night.
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by Funkyflash5 »

I think it varies vastly depending on what kinds of sounds you find useful and what kinds of tradeoffs you're comfortable with. My main pedalboard has been a slow evolution over quite a few years, and on most gigs with my own bands or that are a bit "out there" I use between 7 and 10 pedals, excluding what I consider utility pedals like the switcher, tuner and expression. On a jazz gig, I might use eq and compression, or nothing at all. I'm not a blues guy, so the 5 pedals that are just right for Dan Patlansky wouldn't be the right ones for me. I also don't have the budget for a crew of roadies, so the Edge's multiple racks of effects aren't going to be practical either (though I'm sure with several months study I could find some sounds in there). I've sat down and figured out what it would take if I wanted to get all the same sounds with a minimum number of pedals and I could get down to 5 or less, but that would make actually getting to those sounds more complicated for me, rather than less.
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by S2 »

BigRedX wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 pm
blinddrew wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:06 pm The other 'con' is the cost of the system in the first place. ;)

I spent less money on my latest bass rig - a Line6 Helix Floor and an RCF 745 powered cab (approximately £2k) than I had on the rig it replaced that was composed mainly of items bought second hand.

And when you consider the fact that I also use this rig for Bass VI and guitar, I actually came away with a profit after selling all the stuff it replaced.

Out of interest (and gear envy!) what was your bass rig before the Line 6? Sounds like a seriously impressive rig for over £2k second hand!

Mine is a lot more straightforward (and inexpensive) - a Mark Bass 12 inch (CMD121) Combo with NY Extension cab. £600 for both (second hand). Oh and a lead!
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Re: A good point, well made

Post by BigRedX »

S2 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:16 amOut of interest (and gear envy!) what was your bass rig before the Line 6? Sounds like a seriously impressive rig for over £2k second hand!

Your wish is my command!

Speakers: Two EBS 4x10 cabs (£900 S/H)
Amp: Tech Soundsystems Black Cat 1kW hybrid amp (£750 S/H)
Effects: Line6 Bass Pod XT Pro Rack (£450 new)
Others: SFX Thumpinator HPF (£100 new), Peterson Strobo Rack (£350 new), EMO rack mounted power distribution system (£100 new), Boschma 6U Rack Case (£50 S/H), Line6 Floor Board (£50 S/H), all the cables required to wire this up including some very expensive heavy duty ethernet leads for the Floorboard, after I discovered that was going through standard ethernet cables at the rate of at least 1 a month (around £200).

There was also a Sony Wireless system (x2 so I had a second transmitter pack for my spare bass) which I've not included as I have hung onto this although I've not used it as yet with my current set up.

This rig was great for The Terrortones, but after they stopped gigging I found that with the subsequent bands I was in, either the stages were so big that I couldn't hear my rig once I was no longer stood directly in front of it, or for the smaller venues I was being asked to turn down so much so as not to interfere with the FoH sound from the PA, that I could hear me louder in the foldback on the other side of the stage than I could from my own speakers, that while it looked great from a practical PoV it was almost completely redundant.

For the gigs I am doing now, if I know we are going to be on a big stage with proper monitoring I don't even bother with the RCF powered cab. I just bring the Helix Floor and go straight into the PA. For the smaller gigs I can tuck the RCF under the stand that holds the computer for the backing tracks and aim it sideways across the stage the rest of the band can hear me with needing to go through the foldback. It has significantly cut down on the amount of gear I need to take to gigs, and for gigs were the backline is supplied we can comfortably get the whole (4-piece band) plus the gear we need in an average sized car, and not have to bother with the van.
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