Neumann KH 80 vs APS Klasik 2020

[yeroc]

Hi all! Time has come to upgrade my old KRK Rokit 6's. My room (107in w x 131.5in l x 93in h) is properly treated + a mono reference monitor (Avantone Active Mixcube) already exists. Im using Sonarworks Reference studio on the Rokits and a pair of Audio Technica ATH-M50x as well.

For some time I've felt pretty partial towards the Neumann KH 80's as the best choice for monitors in this price range (over the KH 120 even). I am however a little concerned about the bass response though, as I won't be getting a subwoofer anytime soon, and I like to work with bass prominent productions!

Just having a perusal around the SOS reviews of late, I see these APS Klasik 2020s.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/aps-klasik-2020

Any thoughts? The description of the low frequency behaviour and being more like a non ported box sounds appealing to me.

I can currently get a pair of the APS Klasiks for about the same price as the KH 80s...



Thanks for any help

[Drew Stephenson]

I have the KH80s and when I bought them, after limited in-shop demoing, I thought they were the best thing in their price range. But that was when the Neumann's were sub-£800 and before the latest version of the Klasik existed.
Now that the prices are closer, and given Phil Ward's review, I'd definitely be auditioning both if I were buying today.
You say you won't be getting a sub 'anytime soon', but it that possibility definitely exists in the future then the Neumann's may have the long term edge because of how they can be integrated with the KH750 and the measurement mic/app.
In terms of bottom end from the KH80s, I have no complaints, but in my moderately-treated room I still reach for the headphones whenever I work on the bottom end anyway.
As always with monitors, you really need to try them for yourself.

[yeroc]

I have the KH80s and when I bought them, after limited in-shop demoing, I thought they were the best thing in their price range. But that was when the Neumann's were sub-£800 and before the latest version of the Klasik existed.
Now that the prices are closer, and given Phil Ward's review, I'd definitely be auditioning both if I were buying today.
You say you won't be getting a sub 'anytime soon', but it that possibility definitely exists in the future then the Neumann's may have the long term edge because of how they can be integrated with the KH750 and the measurement mic/app.
In terms of bottom end from the KH80s, I have no complaints, but in my moderately-treated room I still reach for the headphones whenever I work on the bottom end anyway.
As always with monitors, you really need to try them for yourself.

Thanks for the reply Drew.

I'm definitely not interested in dropping another $1500 for a sub in the next couple of years, I want to get some monitors now, get used to them, make music and mix on!

I think the Klasik's might be the best long term solution for my budget and wants. Im just a little concerned about theoretically sacrificing any 'detail', 'clarity', etc that the KH 80's seem to be revered for in exchange for better bass performance from the Klasiks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Drew Stephenson]

Given Mr Ward's review I'd be amazed if either of them were to disappoint, but as you say, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Only you can really be the judge of that.

[Nazard]

A quick story to help illustrate. On All Souls Day, I was playing a very nice two manual tracker organ, very suited to Buxtehude/Bach etc.. Today, I was playing a much bigger instrument with several 32 foot stops. The latter does that hit you in the abdomen bass, the former the exquisiteness of stops, very well suited to chorale preludes.

I have listened to the KH80, a superb speaker, but the Klasik is much larger, so, as I crudely illustrated earlier, the Klasik will be better at bass than the KH80. It is very difficult to defeat the laws of physics! Incidentally, when I first heard the LS3/5A, I was absolutely stunned, back in 1982 So if your point of interest are the late Beethoven String Quartets, e.g. Op. 132 in A Minor, then the LS3/5A are the speakers for you. (The LS3/5A are very similarly sized to the Klasiks).

I have always bought speakers face to face, using material I either listen to, or record. Ideally, you should do that to.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Good though the APS speakers undoubtedly are, the considerable benefits of DSP phase alignment on midrange clarity and stereo imaging are hard to ignore in the KH80.

My advice would be to find a way of listening to both before buying as you may decide a slightly extended bass response isn't as vital midrange accuracy and imaging.... or maybe it is...

[yeroc]

Good though the APS speakers undoubtedly are, the considerable benefits of DSP phase alignment on midrange clarity and stereo imaging are hard to ignore in the KH80.

My advice would be to find a way of listening to both before buying as you may decide a slightly extended bass response isn't as vital midrange accuracy and imaging.... or maybe it is...

Ha! Unfortunately I don't think theres any real option for me to audition both before purchasing. Im privileged and fortunate enough to buy both and resell/return the ones I like less though. I've got a second hand deal on the Klasiks, and would potentially buy the KH 80s from a retailer I can return them to. If I end up liking the KH 80s more then I think I should be able to sell the Klasiks easily again.

If I understand, that DSP phase alignment on the KH 80 isn't reliant on the Neumann mic / software, correct? I have no plans on using the Neumann mic + software , Im happy with the Sonarworks correction software !

[Drew Stephenson]

That's correct, I've never used the app or measurement mic.

[Nazard]

Good though the APS speakers undoubtedly are, the considerable benefits of DSP phase alignment on midrange clarity and stereo imaging are hard to ignore in the KH80.

Good point Hugh, I didn't realise how DSP was implemented on the KH80s. Is AI, or more likely, machine learning, likely to impact on transducers, more widely, soon?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Is AI, or more likely, machine learning, likely to impact on transducers, more widely, soon?

Not sure how to answer that, because there are so many different ways in which machine learning could be applied.

For instance, instead of having a fixed 'algorithm' programmed into a speaker's DSP engine to correct generic driver non-linearities, an AI system could be developed to measure each individual driver and implement individual correction at the factory without human intervention. Some manufacturers already get pretty close to that now.

But I suspect what you are thinking of is a speaker that analyses it's own installation and intelligently and actively modifies its performance. Something along those lines is theoretically possible, but certainly not straightforward or entirely practical... at the moment.

[yeroc]

Good though the APS speakers undoubtedly are, the considerable benefits of DSP phase alignment on midrange clarity and stereo imaging are hard to ignore in the KH80.

My advice would be to find a way of listening to both before buying as you may decide a slightly extended bass response isn't as vital midrange accuracy and imaging.... or maybe it is...

Both the Neumann KH 80 and APS Klasik 2020 are en route to the home studio. Will get some good testing in next week and see what happens

[Hugh Robjohns]

[Drew Stephenson]

Both the Neumann KH 80 and APS Klasik 2020 are en route to the home studio. Will get some good testing in next week and see what happens

Do come back and tell us how you get on please.
I need to know if I should be wallowing in buyer's remorse or not.

[yeroc]

Both the Neumann KH 80 and APS Klasik 2020 are en route to the home studio. Will get some good testing in next week and see what happens

Do come back and tell us how you get on please.
I need to know if I should be wallowing in buyer's remorse or not.

ha! definitely will do.

[yeroc]

Both the Neumann KH 80 and APS Klasik 2020 are en route to the home studio. Will get some good testing in next week and see what happens

Do come back and tell us how you get on please.
I need to know if I should be wallowing in buyer's remorse or not.

Spent about an hour doing some proper A/B testing today on commercial material and my own mixes.

The short story is I think the APS are going to be the winners. Both are extremely impressive, especially the KH80 given its' size. It's almost black magic (err DSP) how big the KH80's sound. If you had your eyes closed you would think both speakers are the same physical size. (Photo- https://imgur.com/a/uqRImm4 ) Both set's of monitors are enabling me to hear new details in material I know well! So fun! Various observations relative to one another.

The APS are overall a more cohesive soundscape. The frequencies and parts of songs all feel more connected to one another sonically. The Neumanns feel disconnected between the low end + mids. The mids and highs are very detailed on the Neumann's but they sound like they're in different spaces compared to the APS. It's actually pretty fascinating to flip back and forth and feel + hear it! I can probably dig in more and analyze what specific frequencies are being dipped/boosted between the two to give off this feel, but these are just my initial impressions.

I wondered + worried about the bass output on the Neumanns but have to say there's actually more than enough (to anyone who has qualms about it). I'd go even as far to say that the Neumanns feel more hyped(!) and rounded out in the bass than the APS. The bass on the APS feels more honest to me, with the full frequency response of the bass (low mids, transients, harmonic content) being a more detailed picture than the Neumanns.

Both monitors display excellent detail for effects like reverb and delay, but again the APS sound more detailed to me in this respect, with something like a reverb sounding like it sits in a place in the mix that makes more sense than the Neumann. I hope I'm conveying this well.

Im finding the Neumanns mid details to err on the side of nasally compared to the APS as well. Although I will say that I probably wouldn't have noticed this as much if I wasn't able to flip back and forth so easily.

Not so scientific and some quite candid emotional subjectivity with overall 'feel', but my two cents nonetheless. We'll see what happens when I come back tomorrow.

[Drew Stephenson]

Curse you!

Ah well, I'm happy with my KH80s - let's face it, my speakers are much better than my ears so I'll worry again about monitors if they ever become the weak point in the chain again.

Let us know if you're perception is consistent in the morning.

[yeroc]

I gave Drew the full lowdown (har har) on my opinion after testing. I also revisited your earlier review on the KH80s and this part about the mids stuck out to me-

"With extended listening I gradually came to the opinion that the KH80s have a slightly more forward mid-range character than the KH310s, but when I discussed this with the boffins at Neumann it was suggested that this is probably a psychoacoustic side-effect of the linear-phase crossover filters, and that the perceived effect was because I was able to listen further into the mix. In fact the KH80 has the flattest and most neutral response of any Neumann monitor to date!"

Is this that psychoacoustic effect that I'm feeling/hearing in my description above about the full sonic picture of the monitors? It's certainly noticeable!

[yeroc]

Curse you!

Ah well, I'm happy with my KH80s - let's face it, my speakers are much better than my ears so I'll worry again about monitors if they ever become the weak point in the chain again.

Let us know if you're perception is consistent in the morning.

Definitely feel the same after a few days of listening and even moving the monitor positions too.. Honestly would be happy to mix on either sets of monitors though! The KH80's are pretty crazy for the size and I would happily recommend them to others!

[Drew Stephenson]

Good stuff, I know a few people have previously mentioned both sets of monitors so it's good to have at least one pair of ears who've listened to both.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Is this that psychoacoustic effect that I'm feeling/hearing in my description above about the full sonic picture of the monitors?

I suspect it is.

We have decades of listening to analogue speakers with atrocious phase issues and that has become a party of what we expect 'hi-fi' audio to sound like. Linear phase (DSP) speakers are more accurate and more natural sounding, but to appreciate that we need to unlearn decades of experience...

[yeroc]

Is this that psychoacoustic effect that I'm feeling/hearing in my description above about the full sonic picture of the monitors?

I suspect it is.

We have decades of listening to analogue speakers with atrocious phase issues and that has become a party of what we expect 'hi-fi' audio to sound like. Linear phase (DSP) speakers are more accurate and more natural sounding, but to appreciate that we need to unlearn decades of experience...

Fascinating! It's hard to get away from that analog, phased sound sounding 'right'

Interesting notes here re: the Klasik's phase response in diagram 4.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/aps-klasik-2020

I guess I like the way this sounds/it sounds correct to me..? Ha!

I'd love to hear Phil Ward's thoughts as well. (Dont know how to tag him here, or if I can)