How do they get their waveforms so BEEG!?!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I vaguely remember a DBX system that installed an expander into the replay chain from a vinyl record player, and used specially DBX-encoded (compressed) vinyl discs.

When set up correctly it definitely enhanced the dynamic range and reduced surface noise considerably... but it was prone to terrible mistracking and loud clicks became REALLY LOUD!

[James Perrett]

Give it another few years, but there'll be numerous AI plugins for rebuilding dynamic range into legacy digital recordings soon... mark my words!

Ray Dolby invented a very effective gadget for doing this back in the 1960's

And I also have dBX 117 continuously variable expander/compressor here which could serve a similar purpose though I haven't actually switched it on for many years.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The trouble is that the analogue inventions of Dobley and XBD requires the source material to have at least some dynamic variation which can be increased. CDs of the last 20 years have no dynamic range at all... hence the need for some form of AI that can work out what the original source instruments should have sounded like!

[FrankF]

The trouble is that the analogue inventions of Dobley and XBD...

This Dobley chap, was he a vicar by any chance?

[James Perrett]

The trouble is that the analogue inventions of Dobley and XBD requires the source material to have at least some dynamic variation which can be increased. CDs of the last 20 years have no dynamic range at all... hence the need for some form of AI that can work out what the original source instruments should have sounded like!

It is amazing how well it can work on some material though. I was inspired to try it after listening to some old undecoded mixes and thinking they sounded similar to modern highly compressed mixes. If it makes old mixes sound new, I wondered what happens to a new mix when decoded? It certainly seems to give a compressed mix a bit more breathing space.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[Yearofthegoat]

The past few CDs I've bought have been original 'un-re-mastered' ones (via Discogs, due to usually good info about the CD versions), deliberately to get the proper dynamic range.

Problem is, the discs are older and eventually there won't be any playable ones left.

Maybe there's a market for a de-re-masterer/decompressor?!

[RichardT]

I wonder if the big record companies archive their pre-masters? That would be a great thing!

[tea for two]

So I thought 'Ah, mysterious mastering....' but it doesn't SOUND any louder than mine. It's just massively FATTER. Anyway. Downloaded the stems for a remix contest and THEY'RE all massively fatter than my waveforms.

How the heck are they getting waveforms that massive without being so mega-loud they're clipping like a hairdresser on speed? Does it matter that mine aren't that massive, considering they're objectively as loud? (Or seem to be!) And why do they go for getting them that massive, considering they don't seem to be any louder? What's all the brick-like massiveness achieving?

Sorry for 3 questions, just am not getting it.

Yours puzzledly

Chris.

Hi there Chris

Trend went from Loudness wars of 90s-late 2k, towards Phatness in this past decade.

As popular music streaming music became more Beatz oriented, the trend went towards Phatness.

As more people listen from their Phones, the trend continued towards what would sound Massive from Phones onto Headphones : Not loud as that might damage ear.

It's also because they are targetting a younger audience.

::

Aside from Plugins as Presonus Fat Channel XT, Fabfilter Pro Q, the Sausage Fattener lol, CamelPhat.

Can also increase Resonance with a filter to give some massiveness.

::

One of the more straightforward ways of getting a Massive, Phat mix :
choice of Sounds, Arrangement, Dynamics when playing, Eq.

This is how I do it. I like Deepness, Presence in my mixes that don't have drums nor bass.
Some may say this is Massive Phat, it's just what Sounds I select, how I Put them together in a piece, where in the Frequency range I play different parts of the piece, the Dynamics in how im playing, then very lastly Eq only if required.

Where the piece has Drum and Bass, I'm selective with how I select the tone of the Drum and the Bass then tone them more within context of the key, arrangement, other sounds, to give them Presence, Deepness.

I like Bass with oomph depending on what type of piece yet not boomy pillowy as that takes away Presence, Deepness.
I don't like overblown mids as this sounds bloated to me and takes away Presence, Deepness.
I don't like shrill highs as this hurts my ears. This can make a piece sound weedy if there's too much highs. With Vocalists, Sample vocals that are high, I will balance this with sounds, arrangements that are in the midlow.
I don't like every instrument or nearly every instrument pushed forward continually as that muddies the mix to me and takes away from Presence, Deepness.

[James Perrett]

I wonder if the big record companies archive their pre-masters? That would be a great thing!

Yes, the record companies will usually have everything in their archive (provided it hasn't been destroyed in one of the famous fires over years). For a major re-release project I would expect to be given the multitracks, original masters, rough mixes, alternate mixes and then the final production masters for vinyl (and sometimes other formats too).

Some labels made a concerted effort to digitise all the masters that were used for releases but, as I understand it, there is still much that hasn't been digitised.

[James Perrett]

Problem is, the discs are older and eventually there won't be any playable ones left.

CD's don't deteriorate unless they are mistreated. The old marketing claim of "Perfect Sound Forever" seems to have been borne out in practice. Even 25 year old CD-R's are still perfectly playable if they've been kept out of the light.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Problem is, the discs are older and eventually there won't be any playable ones left.

CD's don't deteriorate unless they are mistreated. The old marketing claim of "Perfect Sound Forever" seems to have been borne out in practice.

I'm not sure I'd say that as an absolute, but I've certainly got CDs from 1983 that are still perfectly playable, and CD-Rs from the early 1990s likewise.

However, I also have a small handful of CDs and CD-Rs that have failed.

The CDs are all early ones. Some were printed with inks which attacked the sealing lacquer resulting in oxidation and tarnishing of the reflecting layer. Others had the reflecting layer going right to the edges, and imperfect sealing resulted in oxidation again. These discs look bronze rather than silver.

I've ditched the duff CD-Rs, but they generally failed because the organic chemical used for the dye layer wasn't stable and deteriorated.

[Yearofthegoat]

Problem is, the discs are older and eventually there won't be any playable ones left.

CD's don't deteriorate unless they are mistreated. The old marketing claim of "Perfect Sound Forever" seems to have been borne out in practice. Even 25 year old CD-R's are still perfectly playable if they've been kept out of the light.

That's just not correct, I'm afraid. I have several hundred CDs, none of them mistreated, yet numbers in the low teens have become unplayable. Mostly these have developed 'holes' that show up when the disc is held up to the light.

To clarify, these are shop-bought, 'normal' CDs, not CD-Rs.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm surprised you have that many duff discs. I have well over 2000 CDs here with a lot from the early 80s, and only 5 or 6 no longer play reliably.

Pin-prick holes aren't normally much of a problem and the error-correction system built into the CD format was designed specifically to cope with pin-prick holes.

The biggest CD killers are oxidation of the reflective layer and scratching or contamination of either surface.

[James Perrett]

As Hugh said, there was a well known issue with a certain pressing plant back in the late 80's which caused discs to become unreadable but it was discovered fairly quickly and the labels offered to replace any affected discs at the time. That's the only CD manufacturing issue that I know of.

The only discs that I have with problems (in a collection of around 500 commercial music CD's) are ones that have been poorly stored and scratched. I also have around 600 CD-R's and recordable DVD's from 1995 onwards and all the ones that I've pulled out recently have all been perfectly readable.

The bigger problem is likely to be with failing lasers in the readers and general mechanical issues.

[Yearofthegoat]

I lost Howard Jones's Dream Into Action, Metallica's Black album (a not-so-special-as-it-turns-out Gold Disc), Abba Greatest Hits, Genesis Genesis, plus others my wife bought. All stored and handled very carefully. All now skip in places. And all from the eighties/early 90s.

The Metallica disc has developed visible holes right through which correspond with the skipping tracks.

I also have several CD-RWs that have deteriorated (era 1998/9ish).

I simply wouldn't trust CDs for long-term data storage (and I don't, I use a backed up pair of NAS units) of precious stuff like family photos.

To be fair, some audio CDs will skip in a CD-ROM drive but seem okay in a hifi disc player. At that point though it's usually not long before they give up the ghost.

Disc decay is not an uncommon phenomenon. I also lost several Warner Bros HD-DVDs to 'disc rot' (Harry Potter 1-5, Ocean's Eleven & Thirteen plus a couple of others). I wrote to them but they refused to replace them - too late, they said.

Bottom line is: back up your discs or be prepared to pay again.

[Sam Spoons]

Disc decay is not an uncommon phenomenon. I also lost several Warner Bros HD-DVDs to 'disc rot' (Harry Potter 1-5, Ocean's Eleven & Thirteen plus a couple of others). I wrote to them but they refused to replace them - too late, they said.

Bottom line is: back up your discs or be prepared to pay again.

Backing up DVD's is not so easy, CD's are less of a problem from a practical POV but it is still illegal ATM to copy them even for personal use (you are not even supposed to digitise them for iPod/Phone, the only legal way is to buy them again.

[Yearofthegoat]

DVDs can be as easy as CDs. SACDs are more tricky, but you're quite right of course, it's illegal at the moment as the government changed its mind. Perhaps it'll change again in the future, who knows?

I wonder if anyone has had any joy with getting faulty/decayed CDs replaced by the manufacturer? I haven't tried. Maybe send the worn out one in to them?

Anyway, we're OT for this thread so perhaps leave it there.