Mixes: art or product

For everything after the recording stage: hardware/software and how you use it.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:03 pm Over time, I think the quality of virtual instruments will grow, as they start to incorporate performance aspects, and it will be possible to create great performances this way.

Yes, there is certainly potential for improvement. I personally use virtual instruments only for very specific usecases. I find them very uninspiring. How much of this is lack of the feeling of controlling a 'machine'(like a piano or organ) or a piece of gear, but Im certain that is a factor. The physical handsom nature. But i am curious how things will develope in the virtual realm of instruments.
User avatar
Radiophonic
Regular
Posts: 65 Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:29 am

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by blinddrew »

My very limited experience of virtual instruments suggests that so much of their realism depends on the time taken to manually programme in those human touches. If, like me, you haven't got a clue where to start on this, then you just select a string bank, choose legato, and bury it in the mix as a pad.
Smarter people who understand how the instruments are actually played in real life can take that knowledge and transform that same set of samples into something far, far more credible.
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 18645 Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

shufflebeat wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:17 pm
RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:42 pm
shufflebeat wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:58 pm
Radiophonic wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:19 pm Also interesting is to look at average the IQ of different places and comparing them:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country
https://brainstats.com/en/average-iq

Doesn't prove causation, but the corrolation is at least an indicator.

It may indicate that whoever designed the IQ test wasn't aware of the social and cognitive skills required to prosper in Africa.

Probably unconscious bias in those who defined the test towards their own culture. It’s well known that IQ tests give higher scores when those sitting them share cultural references with the setters.

I couldn't find the doc I was looking for but this history of 𝑥/Binet tests isn't too far off:

https://www.verywellmind.com/history-of ... ng-2795581

The upshot of this, which I suggest is relevant to the "nature of art" discussion is; if you want to have a useful IQ test you'll have to decide on a definition of intelligence, most of them are easy to pull apart, and you'll probably end up with something localised for prevailing requirements, i.e., why would someone learn how to do mental arithmetic when they have access to calculators? (If this is included then I win in my house).

So - I suggest we are motivated to make art by the same biological drivers (translated into social drivers) as drive us to be economically successful. We each express those drivers in differing ratios, hence Thelonius Monk and The Monkees. You get to choose where you are on the spectrum.

I think an underlying assumption in discussions about IQ is the capability of a populations to build and maintain civilisation and this is closely tied to being able to create "high art" as you see it in peak civilisational states (the greek and roman empire for example). I do believe to accumulate high IQ people in an area would not lead to a functional civilisation, as some might assume. The creation of civilsation requires a spectrum of people with different characteristic, however, not random.

What IQ is useful for, whether or not it describes anything real at all, is it correlates with several factors and therefore can be used as an indicator for how functional a certain population is (order, productivness, etc)
User avatar
Radiophonic
Regular
Posts: 65 Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:29 am

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:39 pm My very limited experience of virtual instruments suggests that so much of their realism depends on the time taken to manually programme in those human touches. If, like me, you haven't got a clue where to start on this, then you just select a string bank, choose legato, and bury it in the mix as a pad.
Smarter people who understand how the instruments are actually played in real life can take that knowledge and transform that same set of samples into something far, far more credible.

What I did is, automation on various parameters producing quick and tiny movments of a random nature to make it sound more alive. That worked. It is quite a bit of work but it can make a huge difference. What is a big obsticale is that a lot of plugins do not like this kind of movement making everything sound worse. I think alot of softsynths are too presice/static on alot of parameters, making them rather flat/dimensionless.
User avatar
Radiophonic
Regular
Posts: 65 Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:29 am

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Watchmaker »

Inappropriate comments deleted - HR

IQ tests suffer greatly from hidden biases and, as pointed out, somewhat lacking definitions of intelligence. This is exacerbated by the fact that there are numerous types of intelligence, athletic, emotional, sexual, heuristic, artistic, social, political, predatory, etc. Any given human will score variously along a number of continua, and which continua are weighted as indicating "intelligence" in any given study often says more about the researcher than the subject...or the topic!

But I'm curious, what's the tie in between putative IQ and art or product? Did I miss that?
User avatar
Watchmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1125 Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:00 am Location: Upstate NY, USA
Where does sound exist?

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

Watchmaker wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:53 pm But I'm curious, what's the tie in between putative IQ and art or product? Did I miss that?

I do think (im not educated on this), every IQ test measures the capability of an indivdual to think in abstractions. The ability to think in abstractions is a requirement to conceptionalise, which is the basis of art creation I would argue.
User avatar
Radiophonic
Regular
Posts: 65 Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:29 am

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Martin Walker »

blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:39 pm My very limited experience of virtual instruments suggests that so much of their realism depends on the time taken to manually programme in those human touches. If, like me, you haven't got a clue where to start on this, then you just select a string bank, choose legato, and bury it in the mix as a pad.
Smarter people who understand how the instruments are actually played in real life can take that knowledge and transform that same set of samples into something far, far more credible.

^^^^ +1 to this info from Drew

Some of my most convincing virtual instruments came from a physically modeled plucked instrument (AAS String Studio) to which I added a handful of automation tracks tweaking various of its parameters in real time, so that every note sounded at least slightly different, just like an acoustic instrument.

It's rewarding, but a lot of work!
User avatar
Martin Walker
Moderator
Posts: 19109 Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 am Location: Cornwall, UK

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Arpangel »

RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:03 pm Over time, I think the quality of virtual instruments will grow, as they start to incorporate performance aspects, and it will be possible to create great performances this way.

This isn’t consistent over time, now, we "think" we have come a long way, but in reality, little real progress has been made in the performance aspect of instruments.

RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:03 pm
On the other hand, involving other people to play music can take it to a different level of quality.

Depends who you are, I’ve tried all my life to play and work with others, even though it’s been enjoyable "sometimes" mostly it’s been a total failure, I can count the pieces I’ve made with others on the fingers of one hand that to me, have been any good, they have to be stupendous to make me think of them as being worthwhile.
I’m a solo musician, I try and kid myself I’m not sometimes, but I now realise that’s totally pointless.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11052 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by RichardT »

Martin Walker wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:04 am
blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:39 pm My very limited experience of virtual instruments suggests that so much of their realism depends on the time taken to manually programme in those human touches. If, like me, you haven't got a clue where to start on this, then you just select a string bank, choose legato, and bury it in the mix as a pad.
Smarter people who understand how the instruments are actually played in real life can take that knowledge and transform that same set of samples into something far, far more credible.

^^^^ +1 to this info from Drew

Some of my most convincing virtual instruments came from a physically modeled plucked instrument (AAS String Studio) to which I added a handful of automation tracks tweaking various of its parameters in real time, so that every note sounded at least slightly different, just like an acoustic instrument.

It's rewarding, but a lot of work!

In some ways it would be easier to use real musicians!
RichardT
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2011 Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 am Location: London UK

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

Arpangel wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:44 am Depends who you are, I’ve tried all my life to play and work with others, even though it’s been enjoyable "sometimes" mostly it’s been a total failure, I can count the pieces I’ve made with others on the fingers of one hand that to me, have been any good, they have to be stupendous to make me think of them as being worthwhile.
I’m a solo musician, I try and kid myself I’m not sometimes, but I now realise that’s totally pointless.

Interesting. May I ask what kind of music you make? I find the abscense of other musician to be a unique challenge. Playing together you immediatly get the full picture. On your own you got to put all pieces together first to check whether or not they work well together. To an large extend I can predict this, but there are suprises. I would love to hear how you ate doing this. Midi? Demos? Only one instrument+vocals?

RichardT wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 am In some ways it would be easier to use real musicians!

This is true in my experience. I am always trying to get virtual instruments to do what the real life counterpart would do. Otherwise it very often sits rather awkwardly in the mix. Getting that right is a challenge, and I do believe a good direction for virtual instruments would be modeled instruments with randomness programmed in. Sampled instruments can work well but recording instruments yourselfs you can make sure they fit the whole.
User avatar
Radiophonic
Regular
Posts: 65 Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:29 am

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Martin Walker »

RichardT wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:13 am
Martin Walker wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:04 am
blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:39 pm My very limited experience of virtual instruments suggests that so much of their realism depends on the time taken to manually programme in those human touches. If, like me, you haven't got a clue where to start on this, then you just select a string bank, choose legato, and bury it in the mix as a pad.
Smarter people who understand how the instruments are actually played in real life can take that knowledge and transform that same set of samples into something far, far more credible.

^^^^ +1 to this info from Drew

Some of my most convincing virtual instruments came from a physically modeled plucked instrument (AAS String Studio) to which I added a handful of automation tracks tweaking various of its parameters in real time, so that every note sounded at least slightly different, just like an acoustic instrument.

It's rewarding, but a lot of work!

In some ways it would be easier to use real musicians!

In general I agree, but in this case it was a physically modeled instrument that didn't exist in real life, and it was an interesting exercise to see if I could make it sound 'real'. It's the main plucked instrument in this track if you fancy a listen:

https://yewtreemagic.bandcamp.com/track/alchemy

Martin
User avatar
Martin Walker
Moderator
Posts: 19109 Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 am Location: Cornwall, UK

Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Watchmaker »

Radiophonic wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:57 pm
Watchmaker wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:53 pm But I'm curious, what's the tie in between putative IQ and art or product? Did I miss that?

I do think (im not educated on this), every IQ test measures the capability of an indivdual to think in abstractions. The ability to think in abstractions is a requirement to conceptionalise, which is the basis of art creation I would argue.

Well, this seems a bit redundant to me. The ability to think in abstractions is pretty much a universal human capacity. To the extent that one human can measure another's abstractive ability implies that the measurer is capable of abstraction to the point of objectivity. I would not conclude that any human cohort has reached that stage of cognitive ability. I dunno how much science you read, or how far into methodology you go when you do, but in general, much of what gets passed of as science is pretty pathetic.

While there's a massive amount of "science" on abstract thinking, from a multitude of disciplines, I think one of the show stoppers with making pronouncements about some sort of objective conclusion is the apparent fact that reality occurs in the perceivers mind. This is a profound abstraction! If two minds are not possessed of a similar set of referents, how do you construct a meaningful way to determine which one has a greater capacity for abstraction?
User avatar
Watchmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1125 Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:00 am Location: Upstate NY, USA
Where does sound exist?
Post Reply