Mixes: art or product

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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

What is this covid19 and where can I get it?
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Arpangel »

ManFromGlass wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:25 pm Ah yes, the FollowTheHerd 19 virus . . . .

With maybe an Arpangel mutation.

:D
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Watchmaker »

Arpangel wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:11 am
Personal judgments about quality are made all the time, you don’t necessarily have to agree with them, I’m always very wary of those who are too certain about what they talk about, bordering on proselytising.
Nothing is certain, no way is right, all I know is that you can always smell a turd.


I ran across an interesting article on a totally different subject but with a completely relvant discourse on exactly the ideas we've been bandying about and I'll put a link to that thread at the bottom of this post. I'll even move beyond a repartee to the witticism.

Still, I was thinking about your perspective - at least what I understand some portion of your perspective to, perhaps, be (if I may be so bold as to paraphrase) that some people like David Bowie or Adele, seem to have a greater ability to form abstractions than mere plods like us.

I think that there are other factors in cognition and personality that drive behaviors and create that impression, for example, the desire to communicate with others or experience social relationships through the creation of art.

I know lots of very smart people that loathe public speaking, for example, and many public speakers, your PM and our President, by contrast, who seem to have an impaired ability to think in abstractions. Or rather articulate abstractions that have less to do with complexity (art) than they do with conformity.

I submit that both populations are qualitatively on par in the "ability" to form abstractions, but that the way each child's mind forms itself - and it's relationships to the assumptions underlying all of life and thought, is what leads to the appearance of varying outcomes. But have a go at the essay attached as he's a much better presenter of ideas than I am.

https://www.ecosophia.net/the-unmanageable-future/
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Arpangel »

Watchmaker wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:21 pm
Arpangel wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:11 am
Personal judgments about quality are made all the time, you don’t necessarily have to agree with them, I’m always very wary of those who are too certain about what they talk about, bordering on proselytising.
Nothing is certain, no way is right, all I know is that you can always smell a turd.


I ran across an interesting article on a totally different subject but with a completely relvant discourse on exactly the ideas we've been bandying about and I'll put a link to that thread at the bottom of this post. I'll even move beyond a repartee to the witticism.

Still, I was thinking about your perspective - at least what I understand some portion of your perspective to, perhaps, be (if I may be so bold as to paraphrase) that some people like David Bowie or Adele, seem to have a greater ability to form abstractions than mere plods like us.

I think that there are other factors in cognition and personality that drive behaviors and create that impression, for example, the desire to communicate with others or experience social relationships through the creation of art.

I know lots of very smart people that loathe public speaking, for example, and many public speakers, your PM and our President, by contrast, who seem to have an impaired ability to think in abstractions. Or rather articulate abstractions that have less to do with complexity (art) than they do with conformity.

I submit that both populations are qualitatively on par in the "ability" to form abstractions, but that the way each child's mind forms itself - and it's relationships to the assumptions underlying all of life and thought, is what leads to the appearance of varying outcomes. But have a go at the essay attached as he's a much better presenter of ideas than I am.

https://www.ecosophia.net/the-unmanageable-future/

Thanks, that looks good, but needs time to take in, I’ll give it a full read later.
I can tell from the first few lines it’ll get me.
Another thing to throw in the barrel, in the meantime, is that do we, not just Bowie and Adel :) us too, know that what we are doing is "on the right track" when we are actually doing it, I get the impression that the Bowies do, it’s almost like they have a vision, and are very confident about carrying it out, and seem to know that they are in the process of creating something very special.
I don’t, even though I think that some of my music may have hit the mark, after the event, when I’m actually making it I have no idea, often I hate it.
I have no confidence that I’m doing anything special at all, it’s a very ad-hoc and random process, with a low hit rate.
Judgement after the event comes in, and context, can dramatically change if something works or not.
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by blinddrew »

Arpangel wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:12 pm Another thing to throw in the barrel, in the meantime, is that do we, not just Bowie and Adel :) us too, know that what we are doing is "on the right track" when we are actually doing it, I get the impression that the Bowies do, it’s almost like they have a vision, and are very confident about carrying it out, and seem to know that they are in the process of creating something very special.

I don't know about the 'creating something special' side of things* but I'm generally pretty clear about the vision when I'm working on something.
There are exceptions, some stuff just grows organically, but one of the tracks I'm struggling with at the moment is, I think, a victim of the fact that I'm not clear on what the vision is.

* well, I do know really, but I don't like the answer. :D
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by RichardT »

blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:19 pm
Arpangel wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:12 pm Another thing to throw in the barrel, in the meantime, is that do we, not just Bowie and Adel :) us too, know that what we are doing is "on the right track" when we are actually doing it, I get the impression that the Bowies do, it’s almost like they have a vision, and are very confident about carrying it out, and seem to know that they are in the process of creating something very special.

I don't know about the 'creating something special' side of things* but I'm generally pretty clear about the vision when I'm working on something.
There are exceptions, some stuff just grows organically, but one of the tracks I'm struggling with at the moment is, I think, a victim of the fact that I'm not clear on what the vision is.

* well, I do know really, but I don't like the answer. :D

Interesting question! I would expect there are almost as many ways of creating music as there are artists. One thing I think the best artists have is a short-cut route to good music - they come up very often with great ideas which might come to other artists only occasionally.
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Arpangel »

RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:01 pm
blinddrew wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:19 pm
Arpangel wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:12 pm Another thing to throw in the barrel, in the meantime, is that do we, not just Bowie and Adel :) us too, know that what we are doing is "on the right track" when we are actually doing it, I get the impression that the Bowies do, it’s almost like they have a vision, and are very confident about carrying it out, and seem to know that they are in the process of creating something very special.

I don't know about the 'creating something special' side of things* but I'm generally pretty clear about the vision when I'm working on something.
There are exceptions, some stuff just grows organically, but one of the tracks I'm struggling with at the moment is, I think, a victim of the fact that I'm not clear on what the vision is.

* well, I do know really, but I don't like the answer. :D

Interesting question! I would expect there are almost as many ways of creating music as there are artists. One thing I think the best artists have is a short-cut route to good music - they come up very often with great ideas which might come to other artists only occasionally.

I had an interesting experience.
A friend of mine, who I haven’t seen for many years now, so friend is a strange word.
He asked if he could come round to my place, and spend a few hours recording, I’d just got an Eventide H3000, and he was interested in seeing what he could do with it,
My friend was a founding member of a very influential punk band, many hits, a very talented writer, so I was interested in experiencing first hand his writing and recording methods.
He normally played electric guitar, but he turned up with an acoustic, which surprised me, what happened next was "extremely" interesting.
The sound that came out of the acoustic, was exactly the same sound that came out of his Gibson/Mesa Boogie combo, close your dates and it was him on his hit records, whatever he played, on whatever, it was always him.
We ended up filling up a whole two hour DAT tape, in one afternoon, all amazing stuff, he "produced" it, and had strict guidelines, about effects etc, what impressed me was how without even thinking about it, this stuff just came out of thin air, amazing judgement, I’ll never forget that session.
It taught me a lot about the creative process, demystified it in a way, very strange.
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

Why is classical 'high art' music that gets recognition today essentially a historic cataloge. Is music a dead art?
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by awjoe »

Because the people who drive and fund composers in that genre (aristocracy) don't/won't/can't anymore? No... thinking about it, that explanation doesn't work. The answer's gotta be because people who write in that genre aren't producing work that appeals to modern listeners. ("Just play us the old hits - we don't have the vocabulary or patience for new stuff.")
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by RichardT »

awjoe wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:31 pm Because the people who drive and fund composers in that genre (aristocracy) don't/won't/can't anymore? No... thinking about it, that explanation doesn't work. The answer's gotta be because people who write in that genre aren't producing work that appeals to modern listeners. ("Just play us the old hits - we don't have the vocabulary or patience for new stuff.")

I think that’s it. Contemporary classical music doesn’t appeal to a lot of people. Even classical and romantic classical music has been in serious decline. It accounts for only a few percent of music revenues.
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by Radiophonic »

awjoe wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:31 pm Because the people who drive and fund composers in that genre (aristocracy) don't/won't/can't anymore? No... thinking about it, that explanation doesn't work. The answer's gotta be because people who write in that genre aren't producing work that appeals to modern listeners. ("Just play us the old hits - we don't have the vocabulary or patience for new stuff.")

Thank you for your answer.

Do you see the decline in composers vocabulary in a loss of composers/audience culture, is it physical/mental decline of the populus as a whole, both or something else?

RichardT wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:00 pm I think that’s it. Contemporary classical music doesn’t appeal to a lot of people. Even classical and romantic classical music has been in serious decline. It accounts for only a few percent of music revenues.

Why the disconnect?
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Re: Mixes: art or product

Post by blinddrew »

Maybe it just doesn't relate? Bob or Kate jumping between multiple content sharing sites with stuff made by and for people like them are probably going to need a big push to try something that's not written, played, or listened to by their peer group.
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