EQ monitors to sound like NS10

[MarkOne]

Yeah... but they are £600 more than Arpy would want to pay...

Which is odd when it seems he’s happy to splurge 350-ish on a reverb pedal (on what seems like a whim) Just sayin.

[Arpangel]

Acoustic Energy, not Solutions.

Two different things. I know Arpy has some 'Acoustic Solutions' 'cos I got him to buy them

Someone did, so it was you!
I wouldn’t mind spending twenty quid on a pair of 22’s though.

Which is odd when it seems he’s happy to splurge 350-ish on a reverb pedal (on what seems like a whim) Just sayin.

Reverb pedals are "essential" I resent spending more than I have to on monitors.
They are never worth what some people are asking. If folks want to buy them great, whatever, but I honestly believe that speaker technology hasn’t improved as much as we’d like to think, for a good many years, people are beginning to realise this, looking for older designs, and the increasing popularity of reissues.
Smaller, better engineered drivers, more bass from smaller cabinets, maybe, but that’s about it. I’m desperately resisting jumping in and buying those JBL L100 reissues, they’d certainly ad a bit of colour to my basement.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I honestly believe that speaker technology hasn’t improved as much as we’d like to think...

Tony, I think we have established that what you 'honestly believe' is rarely the reality for 'normal' folk...

Smaller, better engineered drivers, more bass from smaller cabinets, maybe, but that’s about it.

What more do you want?

Better engineered drivers are a major improvement in the technology and their continued development brings increasing levels of accuracy and detail previously unattainable.

Developments in cabinet design for smaller speakers can now deliver bandwidths and perform to levels previously only achievable with giant floor standing cabinets... and that is a major improvement in convenience and practicality.

And DSP speaker and room correction has completely revolutionised the capabilities of modern loudspeaker monitors.

Yes, these things are incremental, I grant you, but the monitors I have either side of my desk now deliver a quality and accuracy of sound that was literally unachievable 50 or 60 years years ago. Nothing available in the 1960s or 70s in a similar sized box would come close... and even large pro monitors would have struggled to match their accuracy.

And of course, there are even better monitors available today than the ones I have before me here.

So with respect... you're spouting nonsense....

[Arpangel]

And of course, there are even better monitors available today than the ones I have before me here.

So with respect... you're spouting nonsense....

But where’s it all going Hugh, how good can a speaker be? how good do we need it to be, I have to say, a lot of the modern ones I hear, not in my basement, but in better rooms, don’t impress, there is always something that draws your attention to the sound, in an irritating way. As for the mainstream offerings, budget, mid price range, there’s always way too much of everything, especially bass, to call them anything approaching "neutral" is a joke.
If I thought I could improve my sound, that much, I’d have done it by now, but I don’t think it’s worth it, from a technical point of view, and a creative one.
I see your "with respect" Hugh, and I raise you "with the greatest respect"

[Hugh Robjohns]

But where’s it all going Hugh, how good can a speaker be?

Clearly the aim is to sound identical to the source in every situation... and few if any can do that yet. There's still room for improvement, superbly accurate though modern monitors can be!

I have to say, a lot of the modern ones I hear....

I've no idea what you've heard or where you've heard them, so I can't really comment. I get to listening over extended periods to a lot of monitors in surroundings that I know well. All I can say is what I said previously; the best monitors now are streaks ahead of where they were when I started in this business. The improvements in so many areas are substantial.

As for the mainstream offerings, budget, mid price range, there’s always way too much of everything, especially bass, to call them anything approaching "neutral" is a joke.

The clue is in that term, 'budget'... I object to manufacturers calling their budget speakers 'monitors' because they just aren't in the sense that I understand the term. I wouldn't consider any speaker I've heard as being of true monitor quality speaker below a couple of grand, minimum, and you need to be well over 5k before you're approaching the peak of what can be achieved today. That's not to say there aren't some good models at 1k or less, but being 'impressive for the money' isn't the same thing as being as good as it can be!

If I thought I could improve my sound, that much, I’d have done it by now, but I don’t think it’s worth it, from a technical point of view, and a creative one.

Sure... but deciding that you personally won't appreciate or benefit from a modern high-quality monitor speaker doesn't justify claiming that "speaker technology hasn’t improved as much as we’d like to think..."

I see your "with respect" Hugh, and I raise you "with the greatest respect"

[RichardT]

And of course, there are even better monitors available today than the ones I have before me here.

So with respect... you're spouting nonsense....

But where’s it all going Hugh, how good can a speaker be? how good do we need it to be, I have to say, a lot of the modern ones I hear, not in my basement, but in better rooms, don’t impress, there is always something that draws your attention to the sound, in an irritating way. As for the mainstream offerings, budget, mid price range, there’s always way too much of everything, especially bass, to call them anything approaching "neutral" is a joke.
If I thought I could improve my sound, that much, I’d have done it by now, but I don’t think it’s worth it, from a technical point of view, and a creative one.
I see your "with respect" Hugh, and I raise you "with the greatest respect"

I think if you did get better monitoring you would probably change your mind very quickly on that! Using your Behringer monitors you’re simply not hearing things properly. But it’s a perfectly valid choice to spend your money elsewhere, we are all different and have different priorities.

[wearashirt]

Alright thanks for the golden insights! So here's another question. What does that make of the yamaha hs5-8?

Do you guys still find it worthwhile to have any mid-rangy speaker if it doesn't represent a realistic sound, and if there's other effective ways to judge the midrange anyway?

This is a ROOKIE question by the way. Thanks for all the help.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So here's another question. What does that make of the yamaha hs5-8?

It's a budget active speaker and sub. Good value for money, albeit with a slightly confused midrange presentation IMHO.

Do you guys still find it worthwhile to have any mid-rangy speaker if it doesn't represent a realistic sound, and if there's other effective ways to judge the midrange anyway?

As I said at the start of the thread, I find turning the monitoring level right down and/or listening form the hallway outside the studio just as effective at judging the midrange balance. And I also recommend reviewing the mix on a phone or laptop.

And it's much better and more informative to listen in a variety of different locations than to listen to a variety of different speakers in just one location!

[James Perrett]

Similarly to Hugh, I find listening to a mix at a variety of volumes to be enough. At low volumes our ears do the equivalent of listening through a mid range boosted speaker as they are less sensitive to high and low frequencies at low volume.

When I set up my home system a few months ago I tried a variety of speakers - including the NS10's. They didn't allow me to hear into a mix in the way that the LS3/5a's do. Even the humble Kef Celeste III's were far superior to the NS10's in my opinion.

[Arpangel]

I think if you did get better monitoring you would probably change your mind very quickly on that! Using your Behringer monitors you’re simply not hearing things properly. But it’s a perfectly valid choice to spend your money elsewhere, we are all different and have different priorities.

I’m hampered by not being able to treat the room, hence my reluctance to get high end monitors.
But I’ve heard some, here, express the opinion that it doesn’t really matter if I can’t, a better speaker would be worthwhile anyway.
Another factor to consider, big expensive monitors are a hard act to smuggle in, not like a reverb pedal or a bit of modular.

[Aled Hughes]

. I wouldn't consider any speaker I've heard as being of true monitor quality speaker below a couple of grand, minimum

The smaller Neumanns don’t quite cut it as true monitors for you?
Is that simply a matter of the LF extension needed to be a ‘true monitor’?

That is, they could only be considered a true complete full range monitoring system with a subwoofer (and therefore of course bringing the system cost to a bit over that £2k)?

[Hugh Robjohns]

But I’ve heard some, here, express the opinion that it doesn’t really matter if I can’t, a better speaker would be worthwhile anyway.

Clearly, an expensive monitor speaker with low distortion, great resolution, extended bandwidth, yada yada, will be 'better' than a budget speaker in the sense of giving you more information to work with... And hence a better speaker is worthwhile anyway...

However, if used in a poor acoustic environment you will never achieve the full quality benefits that the speaker is capable of... so a substantial chunk of the high purchase price will be completely wasted as much of the capability can never be realised in that environment.

Another factor to consider, big expensive monitors are a hard act to smuggle in...

I just say I'm reviewing them...

[Hugh Robjohns]

The smaller Neumanns don’t quite cut it as true monitors for you?

They are really great speakers, and have a quality that punches considerably above their price tag which makes them even more attractive. So although the KH120s cost around £1k a pair, I'd say they are directly comparable to many speakers costing £1500-2000.

I've used KH120s on location recording sessions where space was at a premium and I rate them highly... but if I'm being paid I'd prefer to mix and master on something considerably more capable.

That is, they could only be considered a true complete full range monitoring system with a subwoofer (and therefore of course bringing the system cost to a bit over that £2k)?

A sub (in a decent room) would certainly help considerably for high-quality work... although I'd still prefer KH310s as a minimum!

[RichardT]

I own KH120s (no sub) and some more expensive speakers, KEF LS50Ws -the difference between them is not really in the lower frequencies but in higher resolution, imaging and better dynamics generally. LS50Ws are probably at the bottom of the range of speakers that might count as ‘monitors’, and spending more would get me something even better.

[Arpangel]

One for Hugh, I know it’s not possible for you to make specific recommendations, but if you had to set aside a budget regarding a home studio, you know my situation, for a pair of "monitors" that were worthy of that name, what would that be? a rough ball-park figure, to get something decent.

[Mike Stranks]

One for Hugh, I know it’s not possible for you to make specific recommendations, but if you had to set aside a budget regarding a home studio, you know my situation, for a pair of "monitors" that were worthy of that name, what would that be? a rough ball-park figure, to get something decent.

Hugh answered that earlier in the thread. He said:

I wouldn't consider any speaker I've heard as being of true monitor quality speaker below a couple of grand, minimum, and you need to be well over 5k before you're approaching the peak of what can be achieved today. That's not to say there aren't some good models at 1k or less, but being 'impressive for the money' isn't the same thing as being as good as it can be!

NB. That's per speaker!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'd probably stick with what you have. Better the devil you know, and you've obviously been happy making tracks with them for a long time.

I obviously don't know your room acoustics, but I get the impression that it's quite a long way from anything like ideal and with no real possibility of sensibly addressing the acoustics... and then there's the damp problem as well... so buying good-quality high-end monitors and installing them in an acoustically and environmentally dubious room doesn't really make any practical sense.

And It also seems clear that your tastes and preferences rarely align with mine, so that wouldn't really help either!

[Arpangel]

I'd probably stick with what you have. Better the devil you know, and you've obviously been happy making tracks with them for a long time.

I obviously don't know your room acoustics, but I get the impression that it's quite a long way from anything like ideal and with no real possibility of sensibly addressing the acoustics... and then there's the damp problem as well... so buying good-quality high-end monitors and installing them in an acoustically and environmentally dubious room doesn't really make any practical sense.

And It also seems clear that your tastes and preferences rarely align with mine, so that wouldn't really help either!

Thanks Hugh, I’m not sure, the sound isn’t bad, there’s nothing obvious that makes you go crazy, I’m talking about the room.
I’ve set the speakers up on table stands, quite close, in a triangle etc, and I don’t listen at high volumes, I get a lot of detail for what it is.
The walls are very irregular, with rocks sticking out, there are alcoves, filled up with stuff, and a room divider, it’s a really "broken up" space.
The ceiling is low though, six foot six inches, and there is a little bit of boom, maybe cured with bass traps? but it’s nothing major.
You may think otherwise, along with others, but to me, it doesn’t sound "bad"
But you’re right, probably not worth going further.

[Arpangel]

One for Hugh, I know it’s not possible for you to make specific recommendations, but if you had to set aside a budget regarding a home studio, you know my situation, for a pair of "monitors" that were worthy of that name, what would that be? a rough ball-park figure, to get something decent.

Hugh answered that earlier in the thread. He said:

I wouldn't consider any speaker I've heard as being of true monitor quality speaker below a couple of grand, minimum, and you need to be well over 5k before you're approaching the peak of what can be achieved today. That's not to say there aren't some good models at 1k or less, but being 'impressive for the money' isn't the same thing as being as good as it can be!

NB. That's per speaker!

A couple of grand? I was expecting him to say more like five grand a piece, so that’s quite reasonable.

[Dennis J Wilkins]

Wow! This "conversation" has gone on far longer than I would have expected!

Everyone should keep in mind that it's not the speakers or the gear -- some of the best music of the past 50, 60, 70 years was made using crap speakers in untreated rooms for whatever mixing was done. It's the performing artist and the performance that really makes memorable music!

And as had been pointed out many times (by Hugh and others) the room you mix in is likely far more a problem than the speakers (though really bad speakers are not really good to use).

Anyway, if anyone wants a like-new pair of NS10's, I've got 'em! And won't miss them when they are gone.