Pitch shifting without delay.

[Arpangel]

Is there such a thing?
I’m fed up with this delay, between when you play and when you hear the shifted note, it’s only acceptable if you mix the processed signal really low.
It doesn’t seem to matter what unit you use, everything I’ve owned has this really annoying delay, I’ve just accepted it as part of the way it works.
Eventides, no better, Lexicons, right through pedals etc, it’s always there.
Has anyone tried anything that at least gets this down to negligible levels?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Is there such a thing?

No. Yae cannae change the laws of physics!

[RichardT]

The only way to do it is to pitch shift a midi signal not the audio. That can be done almost instantaneously.

[Arpangel]

The only way to do it is to pitch shift a midi signal not the audio. That can be done almost instantaneously.

If you do it that way, it just sounds like more notes are being played!
And you can only do it with Midi instruments, not voices or anything acoustic.
The tonal artefacts of pitch shifting are great, that’s what I like, it’s just the delay that bugs me.
Actually, with voices it’s not so noticeable, it sort of blurs a bit, but it’s with synths that it’s really obvious, it’s OK if you want that as an effect, but not all the time.

[forumuser931182]

Apparently when Pat Metheny used one of the very early guitar synths it had a really long delay when it tracked the guitar note so he had to play everything slightly ahead of the rest of the band. If you do this the pitch shifted output will be in time and then your unshifted signal can go through a simple time delay to perfectly sync. Simple.
Another good point is you’ll finish the gig before rest of the band so can get to the bar first.

[Arpangel]

Apparently when Pat Metheny used one of the very early guitar synths it had a really long delay when it tracked the guitar note so he had to play everything slightly ahead of the rest of the band. If you do this the pitch shifted output will be in time and then your unshifted signal can go through a simple time delay to perfectly sync. Simple.
Another good point is you’ll finish the gig before rest of the band so can get to the bar first.

Oh man, please, you cannot imagine me doing that, even if my musicianship was good enough!

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year.

[N i g e l]

Synth string patches have a lot of apparent latency due to the slow attack
but I didnt realise how much my playing was automatically compensating for this untill I saw it on the computer.

[Arpangel]

I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year.

I don’t understand, how can you compensate? no matter how fast you play, you’ll still be out of time.?

[Sam Spoons]

Presumably it is the same as with pipe organs? If the original note sound without latency you would need to set the pitch shifting box to 100% wet and split the original signal off to a delay so that it was delayed by the same amount as the pitch shifted note. Then you just have to play ahead of the beat by just enough for the notes to sound at the appropriate time.

[Arpangel]

Presumably it is the same as with pipe organs? If the original note sound without latency you would need to set the pitch shifting box to 100% wet and split the original signal off to a delay so that it was delayed by the same amount as the pitch shifted note. Then you just have to play ahead of the beat by just enough for the notes to sound at the appropriate time.

Thanks Sam, all clear!
The thing about the organ, is that all you hear is the original sound, but yes, if it’s a very big cathedral, it can be a big delay.

[Martin Walker]

Synth string patches have a lot of apparent latency due to the slow attack
but I didnt realise how much my playing was automatically compensating for this untill I saw it on the computer.

So true!

I've also been surprised at how much earlier the note-on's of some of my string parts are than the rest of the instruments.

It's actually so much easier to play in a slow attack string part rather than attempt to draw it in, because you do compensate for the feel automatically.

[Honch]

Interesting subject. I thought, at last, someone agrees with me. The problem I have mostly is pitch shifters with deliberate delay units after. I e another echo effect after. Some software but most pedals have this strange, that the timing gets off.

I'll explain:

I have a pitch shift for - say - guitar one octave up. When I play it, it has those inevitable lag time to track which pitch it is. On software on computers it's very long, as it is added to soundcard latency as well as rountrip latency.

Now, after that, you want a regular echo delay, at say 400 ms. In order to play in tempo, say the first pitch shift latency (i e time of the pitch shift to track spot on and let it out) is 5 ms, the FIRST repeat is 400 ms after, but the second repeat of the echo is at 405 ms, third at 410 ms and each subsequent repeat added 5ms, because it has to track the new pitch shift each time. Impossible to keep BPM tempo.

Now, the only pedal that I have encountered that does this right, is the Eventide Rose pedal. Although mainly as a delay, it's the only unit (physical) I know of, that uses feedback for it's delay OUTSIDE of the digital loop. It goes out from the D/A and back in again IN FRONT of the A/D again. As such you can self modulate/oscillate without digital artifacts, and if pitch shifting is used, it has that 400 ms delay after each repeat anyway. I do not own it, I think it's too expensive obuy for such a niched sound. I an awaitng a sale someday, or closeout deals.

Don't forget that the higher the pitch conversion ( i e one octave higher) the longer it takes, and on some software, or pedals, or multifx units one can use settings like "fast" or "slow but accurate" that the pitch doesn't sound out of tune. If you use low pitch like a 10 cent chorus pitch shift, use fast, because there it doesn't matter.

Still, the best and fastest pitch shifter I tried is the ancient blue MXR racks of the 80s. Limited in options but very fast and accurate tracking, better than Eventide 910 at the time. Still today. My friend has one and we measured once at +12 semitones (one octave up). It was 6 ms. For downshifting, one octave low I use a regular octaver instead. Much better.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year.

I don’t understand, how can you compensate? no matter how fast you play, you’ll still be out of time.?

You don't play fast, you play ahead.

[Arpangel]

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

[Music Wolf]

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

[Arpangel]

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

[Music Wolf]

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

Unfortunately the time travel bit is an enabler for the zero latency pitch shifting but don't worry, if we can solve it you'll have had it yesterday.

[Arpangel]

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

Unfortunately the time travel bit is an enabler for the zero latency pitch shifting but don't worry, if we can solve it you'll have had it yesterday.

Would faster chips help?

[N i g e l]

the thing thats making the original wave - couldn't you just buy another one, tune it differently and play them in sync ?