Pitch shifting without delay.

All about the tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Moderator: Moderators

Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

Is there such a thing?
I’m fed up with this delay, between when you play and when you hear the shifted note, it’s only acceptable if you mix the processed signal really low.
It doesn’t seem to matter what unit you use, everything I’ve owned has this really annoying delay, I’ve just accepted it as part of the way it works.
Eventides, no better, Lexicons, right through pedals etc, it’s always there.
Has anyone tried anything that at least gets this down to negligible levels?
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11316 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Arpangel wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:44 am Is there such a thing?

No. Yae cannae change the laws of physics!
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 34373 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by RichardT »

The only way to do it is to pitch shift a midi signal not the audio. That can be done almost instantaneously.
RichardT
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2224 Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 am Location: London UK

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

RichardT wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:57 am The only way to do it is to pitch shift a midi signal not the audio. That can be done almost instantaneously.

If you do it that way, it just sounds like more notes are being played! :D
And you can only do it with Midi instruments, not voices or anything acoustic.
The tonal artefacts of pitch shifting are great, that’s what I like, it’s just the delay that bugs me.
Actually, with voices it’s not so noticeable, it sort of blurs a bit, but it’s with synths that it’s really obvious, it’s OK if you want that as an effect, but not all the time.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11316 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by forumuser931182 »

Apparently when Pat Metheny used one of the very early guitar synths it had a really long delay when it tracked the guitar note so he had to play everything slightly ahead of the rest of the band. If you do this the pitch shifted output will be in time and then your unshifted signal can go through a simple time delay to perfectly sync. Simple.
Another good point is you’ll finish the gig before rest of the band so can get to the bar first.
forumuser931182
Regular
Posts: 113 Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:23 am Location: Australia

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

forumuser931182 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:18 am Apparently when Pat Metheny used one of the very early guitar synths it had a really long delay when it tracked the guitar note so he had to play everything slightly ahead of the rest of the band. If you do this the pitch shifted output will be in time and then your unshifted signal can go through a simple time delay to perfectly sync. Simple.
Another good point is you’ll finish the gig before rest of the band so can get to the bar first.

:D:D:D

Oh man, please, you cannot imagine me doing that, even if my musicianship was good enough!
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11316 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by blinddrew »

I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year. ;)
User avatar
blinddrew
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19297 Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am Location: York
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by N i g e l »

Synth string patches have a lot of apparent latency due to the slow attack
but I didnt realise how much my playing was automatically compensating for this untill I saw it on the computer.
User avatar
N i g e l
Frequent Poster (Level2)
Posts: 2480 Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:40 pm Location: British Isles

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

blinddrew wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:14 am I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year. ;)

I don’t understand, how can you compensate? no matter how fast you play, you’ll still be out of time.?
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11316 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Sam Spoons »

Presumably it is the same as with pipe organs? If the original note sound without latency you would need to set the pitch shifting box to 100% wet and split the original signal off to a delay so that it was delayed by the same amount as the pitch shifted note. Then you just have to play ahead of the beat by just enough for the notes to sound at the appropriate time.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Jedi Poster
Posts: 17402 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
Your karma has run over my dogma

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

Sam Spoons wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:26 pm Presumably it is the same as with pipe organs? If the original note sound without latency you would need to set the pitch shifting box to 100% wet and split the original signal off to a delay so that it was delayed by the same amount as the pitch shifted note. Then you just have to play ahead of the beat by just enough for the notes to sound at the appropriate time.

Thanks Sam, all clear!
The thing about the organ, is that all you hear is the original sound, but yes, if it’s a very big cathedral, it can be a big delay.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 11316 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am
That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Martin Walker »

N i g e l wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:27 pm Synth string patches have a lot of apparent latency due to the slow attack
but I didnt realise how much my playing was automatically compensating for this untill I saw it on the computer.

So true!

I've also been surprised at how much earlier the note-on's of some of my string parts are than the rest of the instruments.

It's actually so much easier to play in a slow attack string part rather than attempt to draw it in, because you do compensate for the feel automatically.
User avatar
Martin Walker
Moderator
Posts: 19248 Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 am Location: Cornwall, UK
Post Reply