Pitch shifting without delay.

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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Honch »

Interesting subject. I thought, at last, someone agrees with me. The problem I have mostly is pitch shifters with deliberate delay units after. I e another echo effect after. Some software but most pedals have this strange, that the timing gets off.

I'll explain:

I have a pitch shift for - say - guitar one octave up. When I play it, it has those inevitable lag time to track which pitch it is. On software on computers it's very long, as it is added to soundcard latency as well as rountrip latency.

Now, after that, you want a regular echo delay, at say 400 ms. In order to play in tempo, say the first pitch shift latency (i e time of the pitch shift to track spot on and let it out) is 5 ms, the FIRST repeat is 400 ms after, but the second repeat of the echo is at 405 ms, third at 410 ms and each subsequent repeat added 5ms, because it has to track the new pitch shift each time. Impossible to keep BPM tempo.

Now, the only pedal that I have encountered that does this right, is the Eventide Rose pedal. Although mainly as a delay, it's the only unit (physical) I know of, that uses feedback for it's delay OUTSIDE of the digital loop. It goes out from the D/A and back in again IN FRONT of the A/D again. As such you can self modulate/oscillate without digital artifacts, and if pitch shifting is used, it has that 400 ms delay after each repeat anyway. I do not own it, I think it's too expensive obuy for such a niched sound. I an awaitng a sale someday, or closeout deals.

Don't forget that the higher the pitch conversion ( i e one octave higher) the longer it takes, and on some software, or pedals, or multifx units one can use settings like "fast" or "slow but accurate" that the pitch doesn't sound out of tune. If you use low pitch like a 10 cent chorus pitch shift, use fast, because there it doesn't matter.

Still, the best and fastest pitch shifter I tried is the ancient blue MXR racks of the 80s. Limited in options but very fast and accurate tracking, better than Eventide 910 at the time. Still today. My friend has one and we measured once at +12 semitones (one octave up). It was 6 ms. For downshifting, one octave low I use a regular octaver instead. Much better.
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by blinddrew »

Arpangel wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:19 pm
blinddrew wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:14 am I'm obviously no Pat Metheny* but using my Variax live in some of the more complex voicings, especially with a bit of internal re-tuning, you do have to compensate for the latency and it's actually quite easy to get into the habit of playing ahead - as long as you have decent monitoring.

* contender for understatement of the year. ;)

I don’t understand, how can you compensate? no matter how fast you play, you’ll still be out of time.?

You don't play fast, you play ahead.
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

:D
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That’s another thing

Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Music Wolf »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:05 am But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

:D

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

Music Wolf wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:38 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:05 am But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

:D

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

:D
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Music Wolf »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:51 am
Music Wolf wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:38 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:05 am But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

:D

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

:D

Unfortunately the time travel bit is an enabler for the zero latency pitch shifting but don't worry, if we can solve it you'll have had it yesterday. :bouncy:
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

Music Wolf wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:55 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:51 am
Music Wolf wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:38 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:05 am But we’ve got satellites going around the earth, missiles that can destroy whole cities anywhere in the world, mobile phones and computers, why can’t I get a pitch-shifter with zero latency?

:D

Speaking as a Physicist I can promise you that, just as soon as we've cracked time travel, it's the next job on the list.

You can't shift a wave until the wave has passed.

I don’t suppose there’s any chance of moving my problem up the list a bit, after all, who needs time travel, when you’ve got us.

:D

Unfortunately the time travel bit is an enabler for the zero latency pitch shifting but don't worry, if we can solve it you'll have had it yesterday. :bouncy:

Would faster chips help?

:)
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by N i g e l »

the thing thats making the original wave - couldn't you just buy another one, tune it differently and play them in sync ?
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Arpangel »

N i g e l wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:37 am the thing thats making the original wave - couldn't you just buy another one, tune it differently and play them in sync ?

Trouble is, it doesn’t sound the same as pitch shifting, that nice dirty thick sound, that’s slightly unstable, but it’s no problem, I can live with it, I can rise above it, I’m a professional.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHGJEdjCoeU

:D:D:D
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by Martin Walker »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:59 am Would faster chips help?

No, forcing the pace inevitably loses the flavour ;)
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by fruitcake »


Would faster chips help?

:)


Perhaps slower ears
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Re: Pitch shifting without delay.

Post by N i g e l »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:40 am Trouble is, it doesn’t sound the same as pitch shifting,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHGJEdjCoeU
:D:D:D

You Sir, are very naughty young man !

:D
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