Song writing tip
Song writing tip
Here's a song writing tip you might not have heard! (or maybe you have?)
Use at least one chord with a "non scale tone" note in it. (dominant 7ths not included, I mean they can be but that's not the tip)
eg: in the key of C major use at least one of the following chords:
A major, D major, E major, Ab major, Bb major, F minor, G minor.
Could also be major or minor 7ths but the key point is to have a non major scale tone in at least one chord somewhere in the song.
Use at least one chord with a "non scale tone" note in it. (dominant 7ths not included, I mean they can be but that's not the tip)
eg: in the key of C major use at least one of the following chords:
A major, D major, E major, Ab major, Bb major, F minor, G minor.
Could also be major or minor 7ths but the key point is to have a non major scale tone in at least one chord somewhere in the song.
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- RobinDorset
- Posts: 2 Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:35 pm
Re: Song writing tip
It sounds a bit arbitrary, surely it’s what chords best support the melody that should be uppermost in your songwriting; unless you don’t have a melody yet and you’re suggesting interesting chord sequences to inspire the melody.
Re: Song writing tip
Interesting idea, thanks. ![Thumbup :thumbup:](./files/images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
Of course in my case I'd need to go and google what non-scales notes were in whatever piece I was working on, but it should be easier for people less ignorant!![Smile :)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
![Thumbup :thumbup:](./files/images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
Of course in my case I'd need to go and google what non-scales notes were in whatever piece I was working on, but it should be easier for people less ignorant!
![Smile :)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
- Drew Stephenson
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Re: Song writing tip
I'm guessing you can recognise/play a scale by ear Drew? If so then using the notes that are not in that scale adds a different flavour to a tune. I'm also guessing that that is more or less what the OP is suggesting, that by using chords that contain these note will add interest to a song.
- Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado - Posts: 20078 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
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Re: Song writing tip
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:46 pm I'm guessing you can recognise/play a scale by ear Drew?
Maybe...
![Confused :?](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_confused.gif)
If so then using the notes that are not in that scale adds a different flavour to a tune. I'm also guessing that that is more or less what the OP is suggesting, that by using chords that contain these note will add interest to a song.
Yep, agree absolutely about the value of it.
![Thumbup :thumbup:](./files/images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
- Drew Stephenson
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Re: Song writing tip
That is a good tip, it really does add some interest to a tune.
Re: Song writing tip
Not at all. You should be able to have at least one chord which has a note that is not in the major scale without affecting the relationship with the melody. it will compliment it and add colour and dynamics. Lots of chords can support the same melody. In a "pop" song just one chord with one note that is not in the major scale can add a lot to it. In C, A major and D major are good alternatives for Am and Dm. gives you a C# or F# which are both not in the C major scale. F minor is also used a lot in songs in C major. gives you an Ab. Give it a try. I think it's a very old trick. I'm just being analytical about music as it's something I've noticed in many great songs.
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- RobinDorset
- Posts: 2 Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:35 pm
Re: Song writing tip
Here another tip, use any note you want, the rules of harmony are a guide, a ‘sounding board’ they are not prescriptive, they allow a combo to have a touchstone, eg “This is in the key of C major” you have an idea of what chords to expect. But you do say songwriting, yes use any note you want, often the difficulty is, once you’ve strayed off the path, the clever bit is getting back on the path seamlessly and effectively.
Re: Song writing tip
My experience tells me that some 'wrong' notes sound great, others just 'grate'. If I can ever work out which are which my solos will improve 100% ![Blush :blush:](./files/images/smilies/icon_blush.gif)
![Blush :blush:](./files/images/smilies/icon_blush.gif)
- Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado - Posts: 20078 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
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Re: Song writing tip
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:18 pm My experience tells me that some 'wrong' notes sound great, others just 'grate'. If I can ever work out which are which my solos will improve 100%
It's back to the Morcombe and Wise quip "I am not playing wrong notes, I am playing all the right notes but in the wrong order"
And then of course there is Schoenberg with his Verklerte Nacht, the atonalists, where they played every note but the 'right' note with there being no 'central' focus based on the basic triad, where on a chromatic scale, the notes are independent of each other. Actually Bach used chromatic changes a lot, but somehow the music remained tuneful, I really like the way Bach holds a chord but the bass line moves about beneath it, usually a chromatic change
Another 'trick' is to have 2 unrelated chords played at once, more easily done on the piano, one chord in the left hand, another chord in the right hand, there will be a clash, a note aching to be resolved at the same time as another note which might be the 9th of the scale, essentially you have the choice of two chords to resolve, gives a lot of choice.
I go along with the general rule, if it sounds right it is right
Re: Song writing tip
There are no rules to composition of course, though some things work better than others. However is isn't necessarily helpful to an aspiring composer to just say 'anything goes', so tips such as the one mentioned by the OP are a good step along the path I think, to break away from the tyranny of 3 chords.
By the way Verklerte Nacht is an amazing work - every time you 'expect' a chord Schoenberg does something different.
By the way Verklerte Nacht is an amazing work - every time you 'expect' a chord Schoenberg does something different.
Re: Song writing tip
We've all done it, except some of us try to move on without drawing attention to it.
The act of putting a surprise major chord where a minor might be expected creates a similar effect to bolting on an augmented 5th or a flattened 7th. You get the usual, "aah!" followed by an uncertain, "ooh?", which resolves itself when the next chord change puts a context on all the fannying about.
Or not.
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: Song writing tip
I've noticed those chords in songs.
E major in C -- Space Oddity It's the first chord change of the verse
F minor in C -- also Space Oddity There is a change | F / / / | Fm / / /| This is also in Nowhere Man and Creep in G.
Anyone got examples of the other chords?
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: Song writing tip
Lots of this in Gershwin songs.
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: Song writing tip
According to my research at least 90% of pop songs do NOT contain a non-scale chord. Therefore when you do include one, it instantly dates the song. Now of course if you want to evoke a nostalgic feeling, this may be just the ticket!
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- Uncovered Pitch
Poster - Posts: 31 Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:00 am Location: London, UK
Re: Song writing tip
I notice you left out the word 'great'. If the implication is that 90% of pop songs are not great, I would agree with that ![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
How many songs did you find were based on 'The Axis Of Awesome'? In C : C G Am F or I V vi IV.
![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
How many songs did you find were based on 'The Axis Of Awesome'? In C : C G Am F or I V vi IV.
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: Song writing tip
There's actual research on this?
References?
(or a smiley emoji to denote ironic use of scientific terms).
![Smile :)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: Song writing tip
So much modern 'pop' music is formulaic these days, ok always was, but these days it's the software that drives the chord changes as opposed to a more organic method - a human. There is no end of videos on YouTube - How To Write the Perfect Pop Song, or The Top 10 Best Chord Changes in the World etc it's little wonder a lot of stuff sounds identical except for the words, and a lot of the time even they are predictable and mundane, about the only difference between Singer A and Singer B is they are wearing different frocks.
I thin Simon Cowell made the point quite succinctly - "Imagine walking down the aisle in a supermarket, where for example all the boxes of washing powder are, all the boxes look different, but the contents are identical, so we have to make our box look better than all the others"
That being said, there are novel many examples of novel and creative uses of harmony in pop, if there weren't we would have ended up with 1001 different versions of the 3 chord trick
I thin Simon Cowell made the point quite succinctly - "Imagine walking down the aisle in a supermarket, where for example all the boxes of washing powder are, all the boxes look different, but the contents are identical, so we have to make our box look better than all the others"
That being said, there are novel many examples of novel and creative uses of harmony in pop, if there weren't we would have ended up with 1001 different versions of the 3 chord trick
Re: Song writing tip
shufflebeat wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:27 pm
There's actual research on this?
References?
(or a smiley emoji to denote ironic use of scientific terms).
My research is not scientific enough to be published in The Lancet but probably more thorough than your research into which airlines fly to New York before your last trip. I've actually/sadly spent hundreds of hours analysing pop chord progressions—pick your emoji...
![Headbang :headbang:](./files/images/smilies/icon_headbang.gif)
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- Uncovered Pitch
Poster - Posts: 31 Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:00 am Location: London, UK
Re: Song writing tip
Uncovered Pitch wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:49 pm According to my research at least 90% of pop songs do NOT contain a non-scale chord. Therefore when you do include one, it instantly dates the song. Now of course if you want to evoke a nostalgic feeling, this may be just the ticket!
That sounds completely credible to me! I assume you’re talking about modern pop, though.
Re: Song writing tip
Yes. I Got Rhythm has inspired ‘rhythm changes’ in jazz - where the B section has a major chord on the third degree of the scale, then the sixth, then the second, all of which have non-scale notes in. Lots of jazz songs are based on that sequence. You probably knew that…
Re: Song writing tip
RichardT wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:04 pm
Yes. I Got Rhythm has inspired ‘rhythm changes’ in jazz - where the B section has a major chord on the third degree of the scale, then the sixth, then the second, all of which have non-scale notes in. Lots of jazz songs are based on that sequence. You probably knew that…
He might have done, but i didn't.
![Thumbup :thumbup:](./files/images/smilies/icon_thumbup.gif)
- Drew Stephenson
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Re: Song writing tip
Uncovered Pitch wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:28 pm ...probably more thorough than your research into which airlines fly to New York before your last trip.
I don't understand.
But this I do know. There are more songs in heaven and earth, Uncovered Pitch, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: Song writing tip
RichardT wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:56 pmUncovered Pitch wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:49 pm According to my research at least 90% of pop songs do NOT contain a non-scale chord. Therefore when you do include one, it instantly dates the song. Now of course if you want to evoke a nostalgic feeling, this may be just the ticket!
That sounds completely credible to me! I assume you’re talking about modern pop, though.
Yes, exactly. I'm not talking about Queen, Elton John or Billy Joel here. If I wanted my song to have this kind of vibe though, I'd stuff my song with non-scale chords. This year's all-conquering UK Eurovision entry would be a good example of this!
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- Uncovered Pitch
Poster - Posts: 31 Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:00 am Location: London, UK
Re: Song writing tip
So where is this nostalgia barrier in the space-time continuum? What period did you look at where the harmony is 90% diatonic (sticks to the scale)?
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: Song writing tip
There's a small easy to read book, I think it's called the Rudiments and Theory of Music. I don't know about now, but it used to be the standard text for those studying music formally. OK it's not jazzed up presentation but that doesn't matter, it gets straight top the point in explaining harmony, and once you get the hang of it, basic harmony is quite easy, it's logical. And harmony isn't necessarily prescriptive, a writer doesn't have to include/exclude this that or the other, the basic notes/chords are just the colours in the palette.
A painter friend of mine was eager to expand his artistic reach by playing bass in a band. He came into the band proclaiming he was going to tear up the rules of music and produce a 'new' music based entirely on emotion. Well OK I said, but before you can break the rules of anything you have to know the rules, otherwise how would you know you're breaking anything?
Building a house needs a foundation, thereafter you plonk on top whatever you want . I really do recommend the book I suggest but to learn harmony it helps a
great deal if you know your way around a keyboard. When I was at music college it was expected that you learn piano, whether you wanted to or not, I am so glad there was that condition placed on us.
Re: Song writing tip
OneWorld wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:21 pm
There's a small easy to read book, I think it's called the Rudiments and Theory of Music. I don't know about now, but it used to be the standard text for those studying music formally. OK it's not jazzed up presentation but that doesn't matter, it gets straight top the point in explaining harmony, and once you get the hang of it, basic harmony is quite easy, it's logical. And harmony isn't necessarily prescriptive, a writer doesn't have to include/exclude this that or the other, the basic notes/chords are just the colours in the palette.
A painter friend of mine was eager to expand his artistic reach by playing bass in a band. He came into the band proclaiming he was going to tear up the rules of music and produce a 'new' music based entirely on emotion. Well OK I said, but before you can break the rules of anything you have to know the rules, otherwise how would you know you're breaking anything? And secondly, supposed the band is in a different mood than you? He didn't last long
Building a house needs a foundation, thereafter you plonk on top whatever you want . I really do recommend the book I suggest but to learn harmony it helps a great deal if you know your way around a keyboard. When I was at music college it was expected that you learn piano, whether you wanted to or not, I am so glad there was that condition placed on us.