Song writing tip

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Re: Song writing tip

Post by shufflebeat »

Uncovered Pitch wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:28 pm ...probably more thorough than your research into which airlines fly to New York before your last trip.

I don't understand.

But this I do know. There are more songs in heaven and earth, Uncovered Pitch, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by Uncovered Pitch »

RichardT wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:56 pm
Uncovered Pitch wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:49 pm According to my research at least 90% of pop songs do NOT contain a non-scale chord. Therefore when you do include one, it instantly dates the song. Now of course if you want to evoke a nostalgic feeling, this may be just the ticket!

That sounds completely credible to me! I assume you’re talking about modern pop, though.

Yes, exactly. I'm not talking about Queen, Elton John or Billy Joel here. If I wanted my song to have this kind of vibe though, I'd stuff my song with non-scale chords. This year's all-conquering UK Eurovision entry would be a good example of this!
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by merlyn »

So where is this nostalgia barrier in the space-time continuum? What period did you look at where the harmony is 90% diatonic (sticks to the scale)?
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by GilesAnt »

.......not to mention what exactly do you mean by pop music? Would that include blues for example - a fertile ground for non scale harmonies
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by OneWorld »

Albatross wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:55 pm I wish I knew more about the theory... I have no clue. People seem to enjoy my stuff but I'm oblivious to the science and mathematics of it.

There's a small easy to read book, I think it's called the Rudiments and Theory of Music. I don't know about now, but it used to be the standard text for those studying music formally. OK it's not jazzed up presentation but that doesn't matter, it gets straight top the point in explaining harmony, and once you get the hang of it, basic harmony is quite easy, it's logical. And harmony isn't necessarily prescriptive, a writer doesn't have to include/exclude this that or the other, the basic notes/chords are just the colours in the palette.

A painter friend of mine was eager to expand his artistic reach by playing bass in a band. He came into the band proclaiming he was going to tear up the rules of music and produce a 'new' music based entirely on emotion. Well OK I said, but before you can break the rules of anything you have to know the rules, otherwise how would you know you're breaking anything?

Building a house needs a foundation, thereafter you plonk on top whatever you want . I really do recommend the book I suggest but to learn harmony it helps a
great deal if you know your way around a keyboard. When I was at music college it was expected that you learn piano, whether you wanted to or not, I am so glad there was that condition placed on us.
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by OneWorld »

OneWorld wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:21 pm
Albatross wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:55 pm I wish I knew more about the theory... I have no clue. People seem to enjoy my stuff but I'm oblivious to the science and mathematics of it.

There's a small easy to read book, I think it's called the Rudiments and Theory of Music. I don't know about now, but it used to be the standard text for those studying music formally. OK it's not jazzed up presentation but that doesn't matter, it gets straight top the point in explaining harmony, and once you get the hang of it, basic harmony is quite easy, it's logical. And harmony isn't necessarily prescriptive, a writer doesn't have to include/exclude this that or the other, the basic notes/chords are just the colours in the palette.

A painter friend of mine was eager to expand his artistic reach by playing bass in a band. He came into the band proclaiming he was going to tear up the rules of music and produce a 'new' music based entirely on emotion. Well OK I said, but before you can break the rules of anything you have to know the rules, otherwise how would you know you're breaking anything? And secondly, supposed the band is in a different mood than you? He didn't last long

Building a house needs a foundation, thereafter you plonk on top whatever you want . I really do recommend the book I suggest but to learn harmony it helps a great deal if you know your way around a keyboard. When I was at music college it was expected that you learn piano, whether you wanted to or not, I am so glad there was that condition placed on us.

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Re: Song writing tip

Post by shufflebeat »

Those edit and quote buttons are so close together. At some point someone's going to say something in a fit of self-righteousness, look at it, think better of it and take it out but leave both versions up.

Don't ask.

Albatross wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:55 pm I wish I knew more about the theory... I have no clue. People seem to enjoy my stuff but I'm oblivious to the science and mathematics of it.

This illustrates really well the "rules vs theory" question.

It would be difficult to be successful at cricket without knowing the rules, one would immediately fall foul of some "leg before tea" rule within the first half.

On the other hand the laws of physics are regularly upended as we observe at smaller and larger scales than Newton was technically able to.

Cricket is, of course, subject to rules disruption, there is still no clarity on hand ball that I can work out, but it is still defined by it's rules.

Physics is different, as new theories emerge so do novel methods of exploration and eventually old theories are shown to be incorrect, or at least incomplete.

But even early wo/man could use the "laws" of physics without codifying them, if only to beat each other with sticks.
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by Folderol »

Some years ago I read an article (sorry no idea where it was) that described ways in which much of music is sort of built-in to us. One quite amazing example is the childhood na-nah taunt. It's the same across multiple cultures some of which have had millennia long separation from the rest of us, and while sung at different pitches, is always the same interval.
Music that evokes certain moods often parallels natural sounds. The ones I remember are thunder-danger/aggression, 'rippling' arpeggios-water.
There is also a direct relationship between heart rate, musical tempo and mood.
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by Albatross »

All that type of good stuff is in this 'must listen' for musos ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/b01sk5xs The Science of Music by Robert Winston, absolutely fascinating.
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by blinddrew »

Albatross wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:12 pm All that type of good stuff is in this 'must listen' for musos ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/b01sk5xs The Science of Music by Robert Winston, absolutely fascinating.

::: adds to ever-growing list of interesting, open browser tabs :::
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by N i g e l »

Albatross wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:12 pm ..... The Science of Music by Robert Winston....

great stuff, thanks for the link.

:D:thumbup:
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Re: Song writing tip

Post by OneWorld »

N i g e l wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:24 am
Albatross wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:12 pm ..... The Science of Music by Robert Winston....

great stuff, thanks for the link.

:D:thumbup:

It does make for an interesting list, but there are the puzzling claims such as "A lot of teachers tell a lot of kids not to sing because they are not good enough" In these sort of programmes you always get someone making a controversial claim, goodness knows why. I have never come across any teacher of any discipline, that discourages participation. OK yes, there will be the exception to the rule, but they do not represent the norm
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