Song writing tip

[Exalted Wombat]

This is all sounding like 'theory for guitarists (or computer-based 'producers') who don't read music'. An obsession with the diatonic chords of a key, and a feeling that doing something non-diatonic is remarkable, requiring special justification.

Read music, play music. From simple early Classical ('Minuet in G') to 'Golden age' Hollywood scores, Jazz standards, John Williams, even the Beatles... and that's leaving out the way-out stuff! All pretty tonal, we generally know what key we're in. But WAY more choice of chords than just the diatonic ones.

Yes, in Harmony #101 we learn the Primary Triads, I, IV and V. And we write simple exercises using just them. But at the same time our PLAYING studies are introducing us to music that does far more interesting things! Don't worry, the theory will catch up.

[MaestroMikeT]

exactly, the actual great music you devour from others will provide a copious amount of knowledge to go hand in hand with harmony studies. Learn, learn, learn. Know the rules, then consciently break them.

[Uncovered Pitch]

So where is this nostalgia barrier in the space-time continuum? What period did you look at where the harmony is 90% diatonic (sticks to the scale)?

.......not to mention what exactly do you mean by pop music? Would that include blues for example - a fertile ground for non scale harmonies

With pop music I mean recent top 40 hits in the UK and US charts. Of course there are blues influences in many pop hits, but that's not what blues enthusiasts would recognise as "their" music.

Really liking the concept of a "nostalgia barrier". I'd place it from around 2009/10 onwards when Electronic Dance Music (EDM) was starting to infiltrate the pop charts in a big way. Everything in EDM is much simpler: melodies, harmonies and lyrics. What's more sophisticated is the sound design aspect which is obviously not the subject of this discussion.

[merlyn]

These are very far from arbitrary “non-scale” chords! The F-Fm is a very old, very beaten route to returning to the tonic chord, being IV maj - IV minor - I maj (or eventually the III minor en route to the sub dominant group, then dominant and release to I.
Also the E maj in C is essentially raising the III from minor to dominant seventh to guide to VI minor, also a very characteristic harmonic path.

Sure, yes. I thought using examples from well known songs would be more accessible. With E in C and Fm in C it's the same note that's been changed. G# in E which is the same note, although spelled as Ab in Fm.

If we keep all the notes from C and change G to G# we have A harmonic minor, which is closely related to C. E and Fm then come from A harmonic minor.

[MaestroMikeT]

That's not correct, I'm afraid, Fm doesn't stem from A minor, it's a chromatic harmonic route if you're in C - you can say it's from the harmonic major scale, a scale with all but the sixth tone equal to the "regular" major diatonic. Of course you could use Fm (and whatever fancies you ) in A minor, but that's not the point here.

[merlyn]

Suit yourself. I don't think the chords mentioned in the original post are arbitrary. Scales that are near C are A harmonic minor, A melodic minor and (seems odd but) C minor.

The chords from the original post were :

D major -- A melodic minor
E major -- A harmonic minor
F minor -- A harmonic minor (we can agree to differ)
Bb major -- C minor
Ab major -- C minor
G minor -- C minor

and A major -- that doesn't fit into one of those scales and would be V of ii

So anyway, got any examples?

[merlyn]

So here's the verse ofSpace Oddity (This is ground control to Major Tom, you've really made the grade ...):

||: C / / / | C / / / | E / / / | E / / / |
| F / / / | F / / / | F / / / | Fm / / / |
| C / / / | C / / / | F / / / | Fm / / / |
| C / / / | C / / / :||

Pop music has its own rules, like a fourteen bar verse. The E is not a dominant going to Am, it goes to F. Sure there are in-depth analyses of a ivm chord, but does that really apply here?

It's similar to Creep and when these things come up often we can say they're pop staples :

||: G / / / | G / / / | B / / / | B / / / |
| C / / / | C / / / | Cm / / / | Cm / / / :||

[RichardT]

Harmonic analysis can be useful - and it's also worth remembering that most music is composed without using explicit harmonic analysis (implicit is a different thing).

[merlyn]

The E to F change is also in Imagine. The "you may say I'm a dreamer" bit :

| F / / / | G / / / | C / / / | E / / / |
| F / / / | G / / / | C / / / | E / / / |
| F / / / | G / / / | C / / / | E / / / |
| F / / / | G / / / | C / / / | C / / / |

[Mattsong]

These music theory discussions are always interesting. One way to look at this is in terms of tension and release, whether it is melodic or harmonic. Once you establish the key, every note and chord that you play after that will have a degree of tension.Tension can create interest and relief when it resolves. Charlie Parker said (and I paraphrase) that once he realized he could play any note he wanted to, as long as he resolved it, he became free. If you want to step outside of the pop music field, just listen to film composers who are the masters of tension and release.

[merlyn]

Using an E major chord in C involves changing G to G#. If we do that with a C triad we get C augmented, notated as C+. If you play C+ you might think it has no place in pop. Actually it's the intro to Mama Mia

[shufflebeat]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

[merlyn]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

You don't need a bass note for there to be a chord.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

I hear C+ (D+). You're suggesting it goes | D / / / | Bb / / / | That doesn't sound right to me.

[merlyn]

Maybe the next bit will make more sense of it :

This comes back later in the song as a vocal line with a good ole pumpin' bassline on C (D) in case there was any doubt.

[shufflebeat]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

You don't need a bass note for there to be a chord.

Agreed, but there will often be some.amibuity when all you have in and interval. It could be part of many potential harmonic structures, which are themselves often emergent rather than pre-scripted so the composer might not even be thinking in terms of larger scale harmonic structure.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

I hear C+ (D+). You're suggesting it goes | D / / / | Bb / / / | That doesn't sound right to me.

That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion because those notes fit that pattern. However, there are other patterns that fit as well. Not all will be credible but some are at least as credible as the C+ (D+).

If I play, for instance, an Am7 chord (1/m3/5/b7) and then take the 1 out the remaining notes don't necessarily remain an Am if I do something in the melody to imply movement. Ergo, the move to G# (A#) in the line you refer to *may* be understood in more than one way.

[RichardT]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

But there's an E natural in that chord so it can't be an Ab.

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

[shufflebeat]

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

[merlyn]

That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion because those notes fit that pattern. However, there are other patterns that fit as well. Not all will be credible but some are at least as credible as the C+ (D+).

My idea of 'what the chords are' is what you would strum along with, or play block chords on the piano. If we're dealing with a record there is less ambiguity.

If I play, for instance, an Am7 chord (1/m3/5/b7) and then take the 1 out the remaining notes don't necessarily remain an Am if I do something in the melody to imply movement.

Yes, if we leave out A from Am7 we have a C triad. Am7 is a C triad with an added A. Four note chords can be thought on as triads with an added note :

Cmaj7 = Em/C, Dm7 = F/D, Em7 = G/E, Fmaj7 = Am/F ...

If a guitarist was playing a C triad then the bass player could decide whether it's C by playing C, E or G, or Am7 by playing A.

We can keep going with that : Fmaj9 = Am7/F. That's in True by ahem ... Spandau Ballet. It's the big ringy out chord.

A lot of pop music uses triads exclusively, with maybe an occasional dominant 7th thrown in.

Ergo, the move to G# (A#) in the line you refer to *may* be understood in more than one way.

Yes, a piece of music can always be re-harmonised.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

I don't know if I'd say 'nice'. It's got a slightly manic circus/fairground feel to me. But yes, the sound comes first. Unless you're deaf you must use your ears, surely? The idea that anyone blindly (or deafly) writes music using only theory doesn't hold. Do I think Abba knew that that was an augmented chord? No. He moved his fingers about and came up with something. I would think he realised later.

[Albatross]

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

It has to look like it sounds nice... you know that!

[shufflebeat]

Yes, if we leave out A from Am7 we have a C triad. Am7 is a C triad with an added A. Four note chords can be thought on as triads with an added note :

I'd both agree and disagree, which, of course, underlines the inherent ambiguity.

Am without the A is not a C triad exclusively. It can be understood as such in a kind of second inversion way but, and here's my underlying point - there are different way to understand and describe this because different languages have emerged and evolved which seek to maintain their internal logic but in order to do so tend to end up sounding arcane and end up chipping off anything that doesn't fit the paradigm until everyone ends up sounding like Andrew Lloyd Webber, tuneful but ultimately meaningless.

But I digress.

Those three notes could be part of any one of many chords, more than the C or Am, that's where all the fun is.

I play a lot of traditional music which, on the face of it, is very simple and straightforward. This is great when you're playing with people you don't know and there's an agreed core around which everyone can orbit. It also means that, so long as everyone knows the core and roles* don't overlap, you can pretty much play all night with people you've never met before. Not like blues where the structure is the benchmark, more like trad jazz where melody and harmony rule. The gold comes when people start reinterpreting the tune to fit the organic-ness of the performance.

*As a rhythm/chord player I can do some radical stuff without stepping on toes, introduce a bass player and we're all back to page 1 until we build up some understanding and agreed structure.

So - the Mama Mia phrase could be D, D+ or it could be D, Bb - both equally valid until the bass player spoils it.

I think we're agreeing her, it's just you're agreeing more than me, which is not unusual.