Mixing Orchestra bottom end

[Wonks]

Obviously they aren’t exactly the same. A dynamic EQ will still apply the EQ if the signal isn’t loud enough to trigger the dynamics, whereas on a multi-band EQ with the same dynamic settings, the sound remains unchanged. But with thresholds set lower so the compressors are always working, they are reasonably similar.

[Sam Inglis]

If they've doubled it then they can effectively be considered one instrument. You could say that the composer has 28 parts all 'doubling' the low end - something has to give, however you cut it. Maybe you HPF one of the parts to keep the low end tidy, but allow the double to 'speak' in the upper frequencies. Or you leave both as they are and accept the hit on headroom.

Which example are you thinking of?

We can go looking for examples to break any generalisation. How about every every cello and bass simultaneously playing different notes? I'm sure it exists somewhere. Most rock bands have only one bassist, but I bet we can find an example of two or more.

My point still essentially stands.

And, as I said, 'others will do it differently'. So what's your approach? And how would you deal with the doubled part?

I guess what I'm saying is that in the first instance, a congested or over-rich low end in an orchestral track may well be an arrangement issue, not a mixing issue.

[The Elf]

Obviously they aren’t exactly the same.

Take a look at Waves C6. You can apply static boost/cut *and* compression/expansion to a band. To me that's pretty much both an EQ and a frequency band compressor, or, at least, as close enough as makes no difference in use.

I think of it as dynamic EQ, because I tend not to use multi-band compression per se, but if there's a genuine difference it's not one I recognise.

[Sam Inglis]

I would say there are a couple of differences between a multi-band compressor and a dynamic EQ, at least in their traditional incarnations. One is that in a dynamic EQ you can have overlap between bands, which is not really possible with a conventional multi-band compressor. The other and probably more important one is that the crossovers in a multi-band compressor are active even when isn't actually doing any compression. A multi-band compressor is always applying a set of steep filters to the signal to chop it up into different frequency bands, regardless of whether compression is active in those bands. That will inevitably introduce phase shift, or pre-ringing in linear phase designs.

Thankfully there are modern plug-ins that cover the same ground as both, without the filtering artifacts -- I'm a big fan of FabFilter Pro-MB for example.

[ManFromGlass]

I guess what I'm saying is that in the first instance, a congested or over-rich low end in an orchestral track may well be an arrangement issue, not a mixing issue.
[/quote]
I would normally agree when it comes to my writing, but a Hollywood A-list composer would have an A-list arranger/orchestrator and mixer. From the scores I’ve been checking out for bottom end these folks really bring the magic and a huge bottom end that isn’t mud. I’ll muddle (hah) along in my own way but have picked up a few tips here that will help for sure!

[ITHertz]

Some good advice here!

From what I've read above, no-one has mentioned manual level automation. Yes, I know, it's time consuming however it might give better results than automated ducking, etc.

As an example, look for places where multiple LF instruments play simultaneously, pick the one you want to hear and turn the others down (momentarily). If the same combinations of instruments are playing in other spots the automation can be cut and pasted.

You can even take this to the "micro" level and duck transients and tails.

This sort of approach is pretty common in EDM production these days.

Cheers,

Chris

[sonics]

... huge bass drums, low loud brass, lot’s of low strings.

Those instruments have very different sound profiles.

I think RichardT gave some excellent advice in his reply.

My thoughts:
Of course the arrangement is key, but after that there are many tools to help control that low end. Manual or automated level control, multiband dynamics, dynamic EQ, modern tools like Soothe or Smooth Operator and many more.

I don't believe in any set of rules or set techniques. The project dictates the tools and methods.

Get the arrangement and samples sounding as good as you can and then tackle the issues, like a build-up of low frequencies.

The ambience used is very important indeed. I like my orchestra to sound "as one", but the synths can have a different space. Once again, no rules...

At any point in time only one instrument should be allowed to dominate that low end.

That's not right! You mean the basses have to stop playing every time the taikos hit?

[The Elf]

That's not right! You mean the basses have to stop playing every time the taikos hit?

This is about the mix, not the arrangement. If those two instruments are going to co-exist as-is then you have to allow headroom for it to happen; and that's going to dictate the level of the rest of the mix.

Or you compromise one and let the other dominate - done well the masking will hide the trick. This is the art of *mixing*.

Compromises, compromises...

[ManFromGlass]

Mr Elf - a question -
I have been rolling off lows and necessary highs on my individual tracks. Would it essentially be the same thing if I sent all those tracks without EQ to a bus (or Aux depending what your your DAW calls it) and then roll off the lows all at once?
To be clearer, I would gang similar tracks so in this case all the drums would get their own bus and EQ, low orchestra their own bus and EQ, synths their own etc.
I suspect the ganging would probably be a quicker way to go, but one would still need to do a bit of individual adjusting to say, a string patch with too much mid information.

[The Elf]

Certain DAWs call *everything* an 'aux'! Sigh...

It's hard to generalise because I don't know what your arrangement looks like. To give us something to start with, let's assume we have a basses, cellos, violas and violins mix, and they are pretty much all playing, all the time...

I can tell you that if the cellos and basses are in unison (or octaves) I would roll the extreme lows from the cellos. Let the basses dominate the low frequencies. The cellos will 'borrow' their low end from the basses and you should be able to get something that sounds natural. If the cellos do need to be heard in isolation at some point then allow the low end back with automation in those passages.

I don't think I would be looking to do any drastic EQ at Group level. The EQ I would suggest is about keeping that low end solid, and that requires something to be down there all the time, not just shaving low end off everything. You're making a targeted decision as to what is going to use your headroom - do it well and it will be as if no trickery was happening.

If there are any low drum hits then I might use a touch of compression side-chaining to the basses to preserve headroom.

I'm not much into rolling off highs, but that's just me.

I'll repeat - it is near-impossible for me to say 'always do this', because every moment of every tune is different, but guard and allocate those extreme low frequencies jealously, because that's your headroom-killer.

[MarkOne]

I can't really offer any mixing insights that haven't already been shared.

All I can add is that people mixing specifically for film can make some assumptions that most other parts of the industry can't.

The target systems are likely to be THX or Dolby Atmos certified or at least compliant.

They will be used in a space that has had a reasonable job done on the acoustics (if not actually an amazing one - even our local multiplex has fantastic acoustics in every screen)

They will be capable of a huge dynamic range and happily reproduce sounds down to below 20Hz pretty linearly.

I can't imagine someone working at Skywalker sound worrying about how their mix will translate to a pair of earbuds or a Sonos

[Arpangel]

Yes literally mixing.
Part of the problem is that I am using samples. Each library brings it’s own room sound. Some even have their own reverb built into the interface, which I turn off. So part of the challenge is not only dealing with each section’s low end but also room tone.
Close mic’d instruments will never sound like an orchestra in a hall from a listener sitting in the audience perspective, which is the sound I have in my head. I’ll never achieve that with samples but I’ll aim for it.

OK, I reckon the type of reverb you use, and it’s EQ, are going to be the most important things here, more important than the instruments EQ, if your going to achieve a coherent and convincing impression of a live orchestra.

[Bob Bickerton]

This thread reminds me what a joy it is to record an actual orchestra in a nice sounding room……… EQ? What’s that?

Bob