Short-scale fretless electric bass

[Martin Walker]

Hi folks,

As those who have attended a few of the SOS virtual meets will know, I've long had a yen to get a short-scale fretless bass, largely because back in the 70's I had a 2nd-hand short-scale Hagstrom electric bass, from which I removed the frets and had great fun playing.

After several house and job changes, I passed it on to our then bass player as it wasn't really getting used, but have since regretted this on various occasions (and have completely lost touch with that bass player, who doesn't seem to exist on social media).

After mentioning this during a recent SOS virtual meet, Kwackman suggested buying this really cheap Harley Benton fretted bass (what a bargain!)and once again removing the frets:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton ... _ebass.htm

Someone else (I think it was blinddrew) also suggested a bass ukelele, which can apparently be found in fretless form, although the tone doesn't sound to me much like a fretless electric bass.

I've performed an online search for other options, and did manage to find just one reasonably priced ready-to-play fretless electric bass, also from Harley Benton - the Beatbass FL VS (obviously modeled after Paul McCartney's famous Hofner bass):

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton ... series.htm

Short Thomann video demo here: https://video2.thomann.de/vidiot/02591c ... 59vqpa.mp4

I like the fact that it apparently has edge fret markings, but I've got to buy blind by mail order. As I'm primarily a keyboard player, rather than a guitarist, anyone got any comments or thoughts?

Many thanks!

Martin

[Martin Walker]

Of course what I'd really like (but can't justify cost-wise given my limited use) is something like this Squier Jaguar Bass, modified with an Ebonol fretless fingerboard and DiMarzio DP126 P+J pickups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGEiJnCUSOU

Gorgeous tone!

[Wonks]

Do you want fret lines on the fretboard, or an unmarked fretboard?

Defretting an existing bass gives you the lines, but you'll probably also want to move the side dots as well to the corresponding fret positions. It's relatively easy to do.

The HB Hofner style is a short scale (30.5"). It looks similar to the Hofner style kit basses from Pit Bull where I've got some kits from, but their fretless kit is £172 plus postage, so a finished bass for that price is good value.

The rather crude intonation on the Hofner style matters slightly less on a fretless unless you are playing chords , as you can always just slide your finger up/down to the right pitch.

And adding more side marker dots (if necessary) is relatively easy.

[Wonks]

As a slightly left-field alternative, you could look for an Ashbory bass, with silicon rubber strings. Even shorter 18" scale.

https://www.basscentre.com/bass-centre- ... -bass.html

https://hobgoblin.com/ashbury-au-115-so ... ric-u-bass

The older ones are now more expensive than the new ones.

Not to everyone's taste, but Pabs/Mital Mahta, was quite a fan of them.

[tacitus]

I switched to short scale instruments a while back to reduce the incidence of pew-bashing when I play in our village church. So my main instrument now is a Hofner Ignition Beatle bass and my funk machine is a Gear4Music short scale cheapy.

I virtually doubled its value putting d’Addario chrome flatwounds on it, but I can’t risk callouses from roundwounds or I won’t be much good on bassoon or recorders …

I suspect de-fretting an otherwise suitable bass is the way ahead if that’s your bag. Slightly less work than building a kit and definitely in the Jaco tradition.

[Martin Walker]

Do you want fret lines on the fretboard, or an unmarked fretboard?

Defretting an existing bass gives you the lines, but you'll probably also want to move the side dots as well to the corresponding fret positions. It's relatively easy to do.

The HB Hofner style is a short scale (30.5"). It looks similar to the Hofner style kit basses from Pit Bull where I've got some kits from, but their fretless kit is £172 plus postage, so a finished bass for that price is good value.

I have thought through all the options - on my Hagstrom I filled the empty fret slots with wooden strips cut from an old fashioned matchbox, carefully sanded down, and found these really helpful when playing.

The HB Hofner bass claims to have 'edge markings' at all the correct fret positions (plus side dots 'in between' the frets as on a fretted instrument). I suspect I'd be fine with those as a playing guide, but as I haven't been able to find a photograph I'd be grateful for confirmation by anyone who's actually seen one in the flesh or on line.

I also agree that the HB is great value, which is why I'm tempted, and the audio demo sounds fairly good to me tone-wise.

Martin

[Martin Walker]

I virtually doubled its value putting d’Addario chrome flatwounds on it, but I can’t risk callouses from roundwounds or I won’t be much good on bassoon or recorders …

This is one reason why I'm considering the Harley Benton, as I'm hoping its supplied strings will be 'slide-able without finger abrasion My 60's Hagstrom bass came with flatwound strings - it was this model:

[Martin Walker]

As a slightly left-field alternative, you could look for an Ashbory bass, with silicon rubber strings. Even shorter 18" scale.

https://www.basscentre.com/bass-centre- ... -bass.html

https://hobgoblin.com/ashbury-au-115-so ... ric-u-bass

The older ones are now more expensive than the new ones.

Not to everyone's taste, but Pabs/Mital Mahta, was quite a fan of them.

I've considered the Ashbory bass in the past, but despite the claims of it sounding very close to an upright bass, I can't help thinking it's a bit of a gimmick with that 18" scale, while both that and the Ashbury models (with rubber and plastic strings respectively) are twice the price of the Harley Benton!

[Drew Stephenson]

Given the price and your requirements I'd just buy the HB.

[Martin Walker]

Given the price and your requirements I'd just buy the HB.

I suspect you're right (as always) Drew

It's just that I hate buying something and then rarely ever using it due to some unexpected reason, so thought I'd see first if anyone would declare the HB as 'unplayable' or 'novelty item' from their own experience.

[Wonks]

By all accounts it’s quite neck-heavy, but that’s what you get with a small-bodied semi-hollow bass. But I doubt you’ll be gigging it. Otherwise you’ll need a good grippy strap if you play it standing up.

Probably worth getting the bundle with the matching gig bag for £19 more.

[zenguitar]

If I can help in any way with the removal of frets, give me a shout. I have suitable tools.

And I would suggest that there are better options these days than match boxes for wood to mark the 'lines'. Luthiers' suppliers will have prepared strips for bindings that would be ideal. Maple would contrast nicely, but Holly would be an even lighter option.

Andy

[Martin Walker]

Many thanks for the offer of fret-removal assistance Andy, but I've just bitten the bullet and ordered the fretless version (+gig bag, sensible advice from Wonks there).

Oh, and I finally tracked down a partial view of the upper side of the fretboard, and the side dots do now seem to be placed exactly at the main fret positions (3, 5, 7, 9, 12, 15, 17, 19, 21), rather than in-between as on the fretted version, so intonation should be easier to learn.

Thanks for all the helpful advice guys - I appreciate it!

Martin

[Wonks]

Congratulations! I hope it meets your expectations.

If you find you need a fret marker for each note to help you, they are easy to install yourself. You can get 2mm plastic rods for £2 or so on Amazon, and all you need is a 2mm drill, some glue (I use epoxy for this) and I suggest a sharp chisel (rather than a knife) to cut them flush.

You can use a fret position calculator to work out where the dots should go. I use the StewMac one.

https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator

And for accuracy, use a metal ruler to measure with, not a tape measure of any sort.

[BigRedX]

Having spend most of the early 2000s playing fretless bass almost exclusively I can offer the following advice regarding lines and markers.

Lines where the frets would be can be useful when starting off and getting your fingers in roughly the right position, but you always need to use your ears to make sure you are in tune, and ultimately you'll need to stop looking at the lines because they are never quite right for fretless.

If you've got a bass with a lined board then the side for markers can be either on the lines or between them as they would be on a fretted bass. I found that it didn't make any difference to my playing and finding the notes.

Just be aware that some fretless basses at the budget end of the market have unlined boards and the markers where they would be on a fretted bass. This IMO is the worst combination, and the couple I had in this configuration didn't get much playing time and were fairly rapidly sold on.

Avoid basses with dot markers at every "fret". IME they are just as confusing as having no markers at all.

By the time I had got reasonably proficient I had found my preferred combination was an unlined board with standard (3, 5, 7, 9, 12 etc.) dot markers on the side where the frets would be but also one at the first "fret" (it's a long way from the nut to the third "fret" even on a short scale bass) and subtle front dot markers under the G string to negate the parallax effect of only having side markers.

Good luck with your fretless playing!

[Martin Walker]

Just be aware that some fretless basses at the budget end of the market have unlined boards and the markers where they would be on a fretted bass. This IMO is the worst combination, and the couple I had in this configuration didn't get much playing time and were fairly rapidly sold on.

Good luck with your fretless playing!

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement BigRedX!

I was aware of possible 'between the frets' side dot issues, and apparently early models of this Harley Benton did suffer from this.

However, I finally found suitable photos of the fretless and fretted versions of this model on the Harley Benton web site, and the fretless one thankfully DOES now have 'on the frets' side dots, as you can see here by comparing the two:





Martin

[Martin Walker]

Oh, and thanks for the fret position calculator link Wonks - I have a feeling since reading BigRedX's comments that I may benefit from an extra fret one side dot, as I suspect that the first one on mine will be at fret three

[Wonks]

The downside of having dots for all the fret position markers is that you then lose their general positioning powers, so you’d then probably need to add some different sized in-between fret markers at the normal 3, 5, 7, 9, 12 etc positions.

So best to keep with as few side dot fret markers as you can. But adding a single one at the 1st fret won’t confuse things.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

As I'm primarily a keyboard player, rather than a guitarist, anyone got any comments or thoughts?

I'd be curious to hear your opinion of that bass. As a left-handed player, I don't have the luxury of such an affordable instrument. I love my Hofner Ignition bass

For fretless, as a keyboard player who would only use fretless occasionally, I am extremely happy with this:
https://www.acousticsamples.net/bass/bassysm-f

Which I used to make this:
https://tomasmulcahy.bandcamp.com/track/sunny-montage

[Random Guitarist]

Interesting thread, I've been on a bit of a fretless odyssey this year.
I built a Pit Bull IB4 closely followed by self designed headless, and have played them a lot.

For myself, I found the dot marker between frets works well. It matches my fretted basses and finger positions translate well. I have found I now play fretted basses with my finger right up behind the fret.

[paulears]

I've always wanted a violin style bass, but never bought one until I bought a Chinese one, on a whim - Chinese name, not Hofner. I thought when it arrived I'd bought an empty box it was so light, but it helps my bad back - so the Jazz 5 str has sort of been retired, and it sounds really nice and is so easy to play. I wish I'd bought one of these years ago.

[Martin Walker]

As I'm primarily a keyboard player, rather than a guitarist, anyone got any comments or thoughts?

I'd be curious to hear your opinion of that bass. As a left-handed player, I don't have the luxury of such an affordable instrument. I love my Hofner Ignition bass

For fretless, as a keyboard player who would only use fretless occasionally, I am extremely happy with this:
https://www.acousticsamples.net/bass/bassysm-f

Which I used to make this:
https://tomasmulcahy.bandcamp.com/track/sunny-montage

Lovely track Tomás, with a wonderful fretless bass 'tone bloom'! For me though, one of the main reasons for buying a fretless bass is to enjoy plenty of sliding transitions between notes, which I suspect wouldn't be so easy to do with a sample library.

Will report back once it arrives.

[FrankF]

I had my eye on this Ibanez Talman a while ago, only because it's so pretty in ivory (je suis très shallow) :
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/right-hande ... ass-guitar

Of course, you'd have to pop the frets out and add some flatwounds: I've just checked the price of a set of flats and they are not cheap, so that makes the Beatbass seem a real bargain... I am tempted!

[Wonks]

In general, I've found that the lowest-cost Chinese-made strings are definitely of a very poor quality, so a new set of strings might be on the cards, but it's worth seeing what the set that come with the bass sound like. All depends what Thomann fit on them.

Certainly the factory strings that come with the Pit Bull kits (and other similar Chinese kits) are only good for an initial action set up where you might be taking them on and off a few times. They are generally low output and have inconsistent volume between the strings, and pretty dull sounding. String diameter can vary significantly along the length (whereas US and UK made strings I've measured have had pretty consistent diameters).

[Martin Walker]

I had my eye on this Ibanez Talman a while ago, only because it's so pretty in ivory (je suis très shallow) :
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/right-hande ... ass-guitar

That is indeed a fine-looking bass FrankF!

Of course, you'd have to pop the frets out and add some flatwounds: I've just checked the price of a set of flats and they are not cheap, so that makes the Beatbass seem a real bargain... I am tempted!

Yes, I too investigated the cost of a new set of flat-wound strings and decided that the Beatbass was an absolute bargain. It may not sound like a Wal, but it's the perfect compromise for my purposes.

[FrankF]

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this once you've played it a bit, Martin: I've always wanted to learn a bit of Mick Karn (Wal or no Wal!), so I may yet be tempted.

I did try an Ignition bass several years ago, but couldn't get used to the shape when playing seated: I notice the chap in the vid "hooks" the Beatbass on one leg, which looks awkward to my eyes.
Does anyone else find the violin shape awkward when playing sat down?
Or is his technique the way to avoid the bass slip-sliding away?

[Martin Walker]

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this once you've played it a bit, Martin: I've always wanted to learn a bit of Mick Karn (Wal or no Wal!), so I may yet be tempted.

I did try an Ignition bass several years ago, but couldn't get used to the shape when playing seated: I notice the chap in the vid "hooks" the Beatbass on one leg, which looks awkward to my eyes.
Does anyone else find the violin shape awkward when playing sat down?
Or is his technique the way to avoid the bass slip-sliding away?

Oh, so you don't tuck the violin bass under your chin then?

Yes, I'm a little nervous about the shape too, as I'll normally be playing sitting down, but hooking it across one leg looks OK to me. I'll let you know how I get on.

[BigRedX]

Yes, I too investigated the cost of a new set of flat-wound strings and decided that the Beatbass was an absolute bargain. It may not sound like a Wal, but it's the perfect compromise for my purposes.

It certainly won't sound like a Wal with a set of flat-wound strings on it.

And while one of the best-known exponents of the fretless Wal sound is Mick Karn nearly all of his best known work with Japan was played on a Travis Bean TB2000 bass.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

For me though, one of the main reasons for buying a fretless bass is to enjoy plenty of sliding transitions between notes, which I suspect wouldn't be so easy to do with a sample library.

Good point. It does have a switchable legato mode which can slide, but on a keyboard it is not as much fun as an actual fretless and sounds unconvincing. I have a Seaboard which would seem like the ideal thing, but UVI Workstation does not support MPE. Falcon does but I don't own it.

[Martin Walker]

And while one of the best-known exponents of the fretless Wal sound is Mick Karn nearly all of his best known work with Japan was played on a Travis Bean TB2000 bass.

I never knew that, and I was at the final UK Japan gig at the Hammersmith Odeon!