Short-scale fretless electric bass

[paulears]

I've always wanted a violin style bass, but never bought one until I bought a Chinese one, on a whim - Chinese name, not Hofner. I thought when it arrived I'd bought an empty box it was so light, but it helps my bad back - so the Jazz 5 str has sort of been retired, and it sounds really nice and is so easy to play. I wish I'd bought one of these years ago.

[Martin Walker]

As I'm primarily a keyboard player, rather than a guitarist, anyone got any comments or thoughts?

I'd be curious to hear your opinion of that bass. As a left-handed player, I don't have the luxury of such an affordable instrument. I love my Hofner Ignition bass

For fretless, as a keyboard player who would only use fretless occasionally, I am extremely happy with this:
https://www.acousticsamples.net/bass/bassysm-f

Which I used to make this:
https://tomasmulcahy.bandcamp.com/track/sunny-montage

Lovely track Tomás, with a wonderful fretless bass 'tone bloom'! For me though, one of the main reasons for buying a fretless bass is to enjoy plenty of sliding transitions between notes, which I suspect wouldn't be so easy to do with a sample library.

Will report back once it arrives.

[FrankF]

I had my eye on this Ibanez Talman a while ago, only because it's so pretty in ivory (je suis très shallow) :
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/right-hande ... ass-guitar

Of course, you'd have to pop the frets out and add some flatwounds: I've just checked the price of a set of flats and they are not cheap, so that makes the Beatbass seem a real bargain... I am tempted!

[Wonks]

In general, I've found that the lowest-cost Chinese-made strings are definitely of a very poor quality, so a new set of strings might be on the cards, but it's worth seeing what the set that come with the bass sound like. All depends what Thomann fit on them.

Certainly the factory strings that come with the Pit Bull kits (and other similar Chinese kits) are only good for an initial action set up where you might be taking them on and off a few times. They are generally low output and have inconsistent volume between the strings, and pretty dull sounding. String diameter can vary significantly along the length (whereas US and UK made strings I've measured have had pretty consistent diameters).

[Martin Walker]

I had my eye on this Ibanez Talman a while ago, only because it's so pretty in ivory (je suis très shallow) :
https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/right-hande ... ass-guitar

That is indeed a fine-looking bass FrankF!

Of course, you'd have to pop the frets out and add some flatwounds: I've just checked the price of a set of flats and they are not cheap, so that makes the Beatbass seem a real bargain... I am tempted!

Yes, I too investigated the cost of a new set of flat-wound strings and decided that the Beatbass was an absolute bargain. It may not sound like a Wal, but it's the perfect compromise for my purposes.

[FrankF]

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this once you've played it a bit, Martin: I've always wanted to learn a bit of Mick Karn (Wal or no Wal!), so I may yet be tempted.

I did try an Ignition bass several years ago, but couldn't get used to the shape when playing seated: I notice the chap in the vid "hooks" the Beatbass on one leg, which looks awkward to my eyes.
Does anyone else find the violin shape awkward when playing sat down?
Or is his technique the way to avoid the bass slip-sliding away?

[Martin Walker]

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this once you've played it a bit, Martin: I've always wanted to learn a bit of Mick Karn (Wal or no Wal!), so I may yet be tempted.

I did try an Ignition bass several years ago, but couldn't get used to the shape when playing seated: I notice the chap in the vid "hooks" the Beatbass on one leg, which looks awkward to my eyes.
Does anyone else find the violin shape awkward when playing sat down?
Or is his technique the way to avoid the bass slip-sliding away?

Oh, so you don't tuck the violin bass under your chin then?

Yes, I'm a little nervous about the shape too, as I'll normally be playing sitting down, but hooking it across one leg looks OK to me. I'll let you know how I get on.

[BigRedX]

Yes, I too investigated the cost of a new set of flat-wound strings and decided that the Beatbass was an absolute bargain. It may not sound like a Wal, but it's the perfect compromise for my purposes.

It certainly won't sound like a Wal with a set of flat-wound strings on it.

And while one of the best-known exponents of the fretless Wal sound is Mick Karn nearly all of his best known work with Japan was played on a Travis Bean TB2000 bass.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

For me though, one of the main reasons for buying a fretless bass is to enjoy plenty of sliding transitions between notes, which I suspect wouldn't be so easy to do with a sample library.

Good point. It does have a switchable legato mode which can slide, but on a keyboard it is not as much fun as an actual fretless and sounds unconvincing. I have a Seaboard which would seem like the ideal thing, but UVI Workstation does not support MPE. Falcon does but I don't own it.

[Martin Walker]

And while one of the best-known exponents of the fretless Wal sound is Mick Karn nearly all of his best known work with Japan was played on a Travis Bean TB2000 bass.

I never knew that, and I was at the final UK Japan gig at the Hammersmith Odeon!

[BigRedX]

I never knew that, and I was at the final UK Japan gig at the Hammersmith Odeon!

He got the Wal at some point during or just before the recording of "Tin Drum" so he would probably have been playing it at the gig you went to. However I've seen videos on YouTube of Japan playing Tin Drum material live with Mick Karn using the Travis Bean, so he may have been using both at that point. Post-Japan, I don't think I've seen him play anything but the Wal.

There used to be a section on his web site about how all the Japan bass lines were recorded, and IIRC when he was using the Travis Bean just the high register parts were double-tracked to make them stand out.

[Fishnish]

Mrs Fishnish now plays short scales after a car accident resulting in long term shoulder problems. She has a Chowny SWB 1 Fretless which she likes a lot, its well built and solid with a nice slim neck and fingerboard. Not what one could call a 'lightweight' short scale though! She's had it a few years now and I do notice the price on them has pretty much doubled since she got hers so now its not exactly at the budget end of things any more either.

She has an Ibanez GSRM20 Mikro short scale as a travel bass and had originally thought about getting another Mikro or one of those HB ones mentioned above to defret but the Chowny (at the time) worked out just as cheap and less faff. Given the current price of the Chowny doing it nowadays she might have chosen the other route. (That's not to take away from the Chowney which is a good solid well appointed instrument.)
.

[BigRedX]

Chowny's have increased in price because production has been moved from the far east to the UK. Although with the way everything is going up, all the move has done is brought on the increase earlier. At least now sourcing them is easier.

[Fishnish]

Chowny's have increased in price because production has been moved from the far east to the UK. Although with the way everything is going up, all the move has done is brought on the increase earlier. At least now sourcing them is easier.

I wondered if a change of production venue might have been responsible. Yeah she'd been advised of a possible long lead time but it turned out to be pretty quick I seem to remember. Same with a Maruszczyk short scale J type bass she'd ordered up last year - was expecting it to be months and it turned out to be mere weeks. That's a nice bass too BTW

[Martin Walker]

Well I said I'd report back once I'd got my Harley Benton fretless violin bass, and it was delivered yesterday.

It looks gorgeous, but was largely unplayable straight of the box, due to a convex-bowed fretboard causing serious buzzing on all lower notes. However, a quick gen up online and I was ready to do some gradual truss rod adjustment - it took four loosening 1/4 turns to do the trick in the end, getting rid of all the fret buzz by converting it to a slightly concave arc (this stuff is all new to me )

I've now got some £5 feeler gauges arriving via Amazon this afternoon, to further tweak the action, but thus far I'm well pleased (apparently you need a capo on the 1st fret, your fingers pressing down on the fingerboard where it joins the body, and then a fretboard/string gap of around 0.015 inches/.381mm at the 12th fret position).

I suspect I may need help to deepen my nut slots (these require a set of special files the same width as each string, and needs doing very carefully!), but I'm not exploring that option until the truss rod is perfected, as I don't want any return of the buzzes.

I'll provide more feedback on the tone and playability once the action is fully sorted.

Oh, and Wonks, you're right about me probably needing a 1st fret marker (it's at 43.5mm, thanks to your fret position calculator), as it's a huge gap between the nut and the first 3rd fret marker! I'll see how I get on by ear first.

Martin

[Drew Stephenson]

Well it looks lovely.

When setting up guitars I use the TRAIN acronym.
Tuning.
Relief.
Action.
Intonation.
Noodle.

Then repeat, especially the noodle part.

[Martin Walker]

Well it looks lovely.

When setting up guitars I use the TRAIN acronym.
Tuning.
Relief.
Action.
Intonation.
Noodle.

Then repeat, especially the noodle part.

Tuning was easy.
Relief took some on-line effort before I felt confident enough to gently adjust the truss rod in small stages.
Action - this is the tricky one, as fretless instruments need slightly different string heights from the fretboard, and I've got a set-in neck, so the bridge height could also prove critical to a low action.
Intonation sounded good straight out of the box, although I've already had advice to replace the current tape under the bridge with double-sided sticky tape once I'm happy with the bridge position, to make sure it stays there
Noodling is probably the easiest part

[Wonks]

I see you’ve already mentioned the under-saddle plastic removal.

You may need to re-intonate it after loosening the strings enough to slip the material out, but you could wait to do that after sorting the neck relief out and adjusting the action.

You can also ‘pin’ the bridge in place, which I’d prefer to using double sided tape as a permanent measure, but don’t do that until you are fully happy with the intonation and your string choice.

The amount of neck relief you need depends on how straight/level the fretboard itself is, as well as your preferred action height. You won’t have the problem of uneven fret heights affecting playability, so you may get away with having slightly less neck relief than on a fretted bass. But I’ve never set up a fretless bass, so gave no idea if a really low action (and so a small string to fretboard angle) has an adverse affect on the sound.

[Martin Walker]

Thanks for the expert advice Wonks!

Yes, I'm still unsure about whether or not to do deeper nut slots (low E currently sits about 2mm above the fretboard at the nut).

Part of me thinks that once I have the truss rod adjusted so that I can play without any buzzes with a capo at the first fret position, then I could (theoretically) file down the nut slots so that the strings are just a tiny amount above the fretboard, or even flush with it, as the only difference would be when playing open strings.

On the other hand, I'm also starting to read about setups to achieve the best fretless 'mwah/growl' sound, so I'll imbibe that advice before deciding on the final action.

[Sam Spoons]

The nut needs to be a little higher than the fretboard or you may get buzzing behind the fretting finger as the string will be more or less resting on the fretboard between the nut and your finger. Nut slots (and zero frets) on fretted instruments are typically cut a little higher than the first fret to prevent this.