Cello with piano accompany in Church

[Tj001]

Trying to record a cello audition in church, with a grand piano accompany. It is a medium size catholic church with high arc ceiling. There will be no audience so I can place mic and camera anywhere I like. As a beginner, I only have a sE8 omni pair to use, connected to ZOOM F6. Any suggestion on how to place this mic pair? Greatly appreciated.

[MOF]

If you want a stereo recording then use the microphones as spaced omnis and have the cellist positioned centrally in front of the piano soundboard. Hopefully they will self balance for levels.
You’ll have to experiment with how close the microphones are to the performers to balance with the amount of reverb in the room.

[Tj001]

is there a rule of thumb for the space between omni mics? I have seen AB 30. Is 30 cm enough to create a good stereo image? Will 1-2 meters be better?
For cello distance, what is the range to try? Is 1 to 2 meters a good start?

[MOF]

I’ve never used spaced omnis so I can’t comment, I’m just suggesting what I’ve read. I think spacing them a meter apart could give you that ‘hole in the middle’ effect and might not be very Mono compatible, I think that’s where the Decca tree comes in with the third centrally positioned microphone.
I suggested the cellist being centrally positioned but you might want the cello to be slightly left or right.
The distance from performers to microphones is something to decide on while setting up/rehearsing as it depends on the amount of reverberation in the room.

[Bob Bickerton]

I’d use around 30cm spacing and focus on placement to get the best balance of cello versus piano versus room, bearing in mind if it’s for a cello audition you may give a little more emphasis to the cello so the adjudicators can make their assessment.

I’d probably also use the omnis 90 degrees off axis to attenuate any HF lift they may have on axis.

Bob

[tacitus]

Nailed it, Bob! I can’t better any of your suggestions, not that I’m that clever, but I recorded with spaced omnis quite a bit when I wanted full, even bass for organs, etc. usually 30-60cm spacing.

I’d be looking to get the cello sufficiently nearer to the mikes than the piano that both players can play comfortably without the piano drowning the cello. That should help give the cello the extra focus Bob mentions.

[Arpangel]

Everything has been said, I would just add cooperative players, who are prepared to move around, plenty of rehearsal time, and a decent control room space that’s isolated from the performance area, and this is what my job used to be, mic monkey, moving the mics so the engineer didn’t have to keep running backwards and forwards, and this is where talkback comes in handy.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Before you do anything else, listen to the ensemble in the room. Once that is in your brain you will know what to capture. We're assuming it's a grand piano... is it?

A very tall mic stand is needed since the best part of the sound projects upwards. I've had success with a regular boom mic stand at almost full extension for a string quartet in a similar space. As well as the room reverb, you'll need to think about how close the mics are to the audience. People can make a lot of noise when they're not clapping. But you also want to capture a lively and enthusiastic sounding response.

Listen listen listen to the mic output with good isolated headphones and playbacks. Do not rush this part. Judge the mic width by ear and use a meter such as Izotope imager, you want it to mostly be between 0 and +1. IIRC I went to something like 33cm the last time. It depends on the room reverb mainly, but I don't usually analyse it that much I go by feel. With that quartet I was also trying to ensure that the second violin was clear because the soloist was often a bit on the loud side. Getting the mic stand to full height extension achieved that.

So much for my views. Here are some relevant articles from the magazine:
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ion-part-1
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... cord-choir

[Arpangel]

Monitoring on phones in the space isn’t ideal, it can work if you have absolutely no choice, but a separate control room with small high quality monitors is always preferable.

[Bob Bickerton]

Gentlemen, best to read the op before commenting. It’s a grand piano, no audience and a recording for audition………. Best to keep it simple with focus on the cello to enable adjudicators to assess. Just checked out the frequency plot of SE8s - yes, I’d angle them 90 degrees off axis as suggested!

Bob

[ceejay]

... without wishing to "rain on your parade" so as to speak, a few years ago I was called upon to record the national finals of the Young Virtuoso Awards which was a similar set-up of soloists in a church ... the preliminary heats had been recorded with a stereo pair much has been suggested here, in this case with a couple of Rode NT1000, but I opted to add two NT5 spot mics as well and record on a Roland R-44 ... just as well as it poured with rain throughout with the result that the stereo pair was almost useless and the spot mikes saved the day ... worth bearing in mind if there is no possibility of retakes ...

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Gentlemen, best to read the op before commenting. It’s a grand piano, no audience and a recording for audition………. Best to keep it simple with focus on the cello to enable adjudicators to assess. Just checked out the frequency plot of SE8s - yes, I’d angle them 90 degrees off axis as suggested!

Bob

Good call Why 90 degrees though?

[Tj001]

Gentlemen, best to read the op before commenting. It’s a grand piano, no audience and a recording for audition………. Best to keep it simple with focus on the cello to enable adjudicators to assess. Just checked out the frequency plot of SE8s - yes, I’d angle them 90 degrees off axis as suggested!

Bob

really a newby question: What does 90 degree off axis look like? If I am holding the mics in front of the player, instead of pointing the mics to the cello (in the front), left mic pointing to left and right mic pointing to the right?

[Tj001]

... without wishing to "rain on your parade" so as to speak, a few years ago I was called upon to record the national finals of the Young Virtuoso Awards which was a similar set-up of soloists in a church ... the preliminary heats had been recorded with a stereo pair much has been suggested here, in this case with a couple of Rode NT1000, but I opted to add two NT5 spot mics as well and record on a Roland R-44 ... just as well as it poured with rain throughout with the result that the stereo pair was almost useless and the spot mikes saved the day ... worth bearing in mind if there is no possibility of retakes ...

So how did you place the two NT5 spot mics?

[Bob Bickerton]

Gentlemen, best to read the op before commenting. It’s a grand piano, no audience and a recording for audition………. Best to keep it simple with focus on the cello to enable adjudicators to assess. Just checked out the frequency plot of SE8s - yes, I’d angle them 90 degrees off axis as suggested!

Bob

Good call Why 90 degrees though?

The SE8, like many Omni SDCs, has a high frequency lift, so is tuned for use in the diffuse field. However, this lift is less prominent or even neutralised when used 90 degrees off axis to the source, the body of the microphone acting to attenuate higher frequencies.

Now whether the above scenario is deemed diffuse or near field is dependent on the distance the mics are used from the source, but either way recording a stringed instrument, especially if the player is a student (just guessing here), it would likely be best to avoid the HF lift and use a flatter response.

It’s a fairly common technique when recording piano in the near field say with Neumann KM183s to use them 90 degrees off axis.

Hugh come along and give a more technical response, but that’s the basic thinking.

Bob

[James Perrett]

Hugh come along and give a more technical response, but that’s the basic thinking.

Here's a post from Hugh from a few months ago...

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... ld#p808093

.

[Drew Stephenson]

So for the OP, just to clarify, 90 degrees off axis means pointing vertically upwards rather than towards the instruments.

[sonics]

It's all been covered well.
IME the other things to be aware of are traffic noise and visitors!
The mics higher up can work very well to get the best sound balance. Do quite a few short tests adjusting the placement to find the best spot. Once the audio is sorted, you are allowed to think about where the camera might be placed.

In this sort of situation I now often use IEMs for monitoring.

[ceejay]

So how did you place the two NT5 spot mics?

... there was nothing subtle there I assure you ... one was under the lid of the grand piano and the other was on the variety of soloists like soprano, violin, flute in a fast-moving, live show so, having not used the NT5 before, I dropped back into my TV audio days with KM84 and instructed my assistant to, in the short changeover time between acts, put the mic as close as possible and point it in the vague direction of where the sound was coming from without causing an obstruction ... the final winner was a classical guitarist who I'm sure gained extra points for persevering through the worst of the storm ... the guy who did the mix for the national radio broadcast told me that for her performance he used only the spot mic, dialled up a "church" stereo reverb preset and dropped it across the mic to roughly match the other contestants ... "belt and braces" sound production - like the boy scouts "be prepared" for anything!

[Arpangel]

really a newby question: What does 90 degree off axis look like? If I am holding the mics in front of the player, instead of pointing the mics to the cello (in the front), left mic pointing to left and right mic pointing to the right?

Isn’t it just 20 degrees less than an ORTF pair? Should look like a shallow ORTF?

[Drew Stephenson]

really a newby question: What does 90 degree off axis look like? If I am holding the mics in front of the player, instead of pointing the mics to the cello (in the front), left mic pointing to left and right mic pointing to the right?

Isn’t it just 20 degrees less than an ORTF pair? Should look like a shallow ORTF?

We're not talking about the stereo capture side of things here but the pressure build up at the capsule. If you're using omni's then ORTF isn't a thing, nor is anything else that relies on the directional properties of the capsule. The off-axis suggestion here is to manage the effect of HF build up.
Hugh's thread that James linked to above covers it.

[Arpangel]

really a newby question: What does 90 degree off axis look like? If I am holding the mics in front of the player, instead of pointing the mics to the cello (in the front), left mic pointing to left and right mic pointing to the right?

Isn’t it just 20 degrees less than an ORTF pair? Should look like a shallow ORTF?

We're not talking about the stereo capture side of things here but the pressure build up at the capsule. If you're using omni's then ORTF isn't a thing, nor is anything else that relies on the directional properties of the capsule. The off-axis suggestion here is to manage the effect of HF build up.
Hugh's thread that James linked to above covers it.

I’m just talking about how it looks.

[Drew Stephenson]

It looks like two microphones, 30 cm apart, standing vertically upright.
Not really like ORTF at all.

[Arpangel]

It looks like two microphones, 30 cm apart, standing vertically upright.
Not really like ORTF at all.

That’s weird, whenever we’ve used spaced omni's on piano we point them directly at it, I know they’re omni's but?

[Bob Bickerton]

It looks like two microphones, 30 cm apart, standing vertically upright.
Not really like ORTF at all.

That’s weird, whenever we’ve used spaced omni's on piano we point them directly at it, I know they’re omni's but?

Depends on the microphone. They’re either designed for use in the free-field, that is fairly close miked or in the diffuse-field, that is to be used further away from source. My MKH8020s are designed flat for use in the free-field, so I’d point them at a piano if miking fairly close, I used to use my KM183s 90degrees off axis at a similar position because they’re designed for the diffuse-field (and have a HF boost). Your MKH20s have a switch to enable either option!

Best read the link to Hugh’s post above.

Bob

[Drew Stephenson]

What Bob said.

Also a lot of omnis are not completely omni at higher frequencies so there will be some directionality involved there as well.
As usual, experimentation is the name of the game to get the best sound for those instruments, in that room, at that time.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I find it disturbing how few people seem to know about, let alone understand, the practical sigificance of diffuse- / free-field equalisation on omni mics.

This key aspect of omni mics was discussed in this month's Q&A column in the magazine.

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... icrophones

If you only have omni mics equalised for the diffuse field (with a hefty HF boost), but need to use them in the near (free) field, then the solution is as Bob describes: place the capsule so that the direct sound passes across the diaphragm instead of straight into it. This avoids any pressure build up in front of the diaphragm and thus negates the audible HF boost completely.

In practice, that means rigging the omni mics so they point at the ceiling rather than directly at the instrument itself.

As for the OP's recording session if I was doing the job, I'd arrange the cellist opposite the curve of the grand piano, maybe 3 metres away and facing the pianist for good eye contact and acoustic separation.

As an evaluation recording (rather than a concert CD) I'd err towards individual spot miking rather than an overall stereo pair.

How you mic it depends on what mics you have. I like ribbons on strings, so I'd rig one or two ribbons for the cello, placed side-on to the piano (for max rejection), and then a couple of mics for the piano looking in from the tail (Decca style,) or in the curve looking down.

If you have cardioids for the cello, then aim with the null backing the piano and turn the cellist to face the piano.

If the room warrants it, you could add an ambient space pair to help the (closer) instrument mics blend better.

[MOF]

The OP has two microphones Hugh. It’s been interesting to find out about the different omni microphones, I didn’t know about the hf lift.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ah... Sorry.

In that case, I'd place the cellist a couple of metres away from the curve of the grand piano, facing the pianist or good sightlines, as before. Rig the omnis on a stereo bar about 30-40cm apart, facing the ceiling, and place the stand roughly midway between the piano and cellist. Start maybe 1.5-2 metres high and experiment with height and position to optimise balance and tonality of cello/piano.

as a starting point, the mic towards the keyboard end of the piano should probably be panned left, and the one towards the tail panned right... but depending on distances it might not make a lot of difference which way round they are, and you might choose to favour the cello in determining the mic panning (high strings right).

As it's a demo piece for the cellist, I'd definitely favour the cello clarity over that of the piano.

With the right positioning you should end up with a reasonably narrow (but not pencil thin) cello image, and wider piano image, with the church acoustic filling in the edges.

[stany]

This is exactly the use case that got me started in recording and videography as a hobby a couple of years ago--my cellist daughter is finishing high school and is preparing for her auditions, and her pianist brother is her sonata and chamber music partner. Lots of good ideas here for me to try out, many thanks! I have an R88, an omni pair, and a cardioid pair, so nearly everything described is possible.

One thought--facing each other could have micing benefits, but since video is usually required for screening recordings, I plan to do this with a live-performance stage setup since that's what the screening committees will be most familiar with.