Real time (live) tempo correction

[Wonks]

Could you not treat each segment in the build-up as a different sample, so you trigger the next sample using a footswitch every two bars, rather than have the whole build-up as a single sample? I know that solution should work for Radar Love, but could it work for other songs as well?

Drummers can either work with click tracks or they can’t. The last gig I saw (just over a week ago) the drummer (and the band) were obviously using clicks as the singer was perfectly in time with a video of theirs from the late 80s/early 90s projected above them.

It may take a little while to master but if you want to keep the trio format whilst triggering long samples, then it really is worth giving it a go. It doesn’t need to be an actual headphone click, it can be a visual indication, there are MIDI tempo to light devices around.

Having a click doesn’t mean that you can’t push and pull the note timings, but it does allow you to work easily with samples the way you want to.

There’s also tempo detection prior to the start of the sample start, but if the drummer can’t keep exact time for a long single sample playback, you then require the software to constantly change the playback tempo and stretch or compact the sample on the fly, which isn’t a good thing IMO to be going on, and is very open to mishits or a dropped stick totally confusing any tempo calculating software.

So I’d definitely consider using some form of click, whether audio or visual, or else split the sample up into sections that can be triggered manually every one or two bars with a footswitch.

[rockydennis]

What if you split the guitar signal, and send one to a synth pedal (or a guitar to midi device, and send that to a synth), so you're double tracking your guitar with another sound. I think that could work well for Radar Love, not sure about whatever other songs you are performing.

[Wonks]

Yes, definitely some scope for a synth pedal like an SY300 on Radar Love, but it might be a reasonably hefty outlay and time investment just for one song. But if you have other songs where synth chords would be appropriate, something to consider?

Otherwise I’d just try and either rearrange the songs so you don’t need the samples or move to other songs that don’t need them. Or else get a keyboard player in again.

[James Perrett]

It is also worth saying that a click track doesn't have to be a click. Many drummers use a drum machine pattern that is similar in feel to the pattern that they will be playing.

[MarkOne]

You just need to make sure it's really clear in the drummer's IEMs

Last night due to a combination of a tiny stage area and bar geometry trapping the backline sound and a very noisy crowd, the drummer lost the click briefly and our cover of Rio was half a bar behind for the rest of the song. Fortunately only the drummer and I really knew as we are the only ones on IEMs and although the synth arpeggios were a bit weird, everyone was having enough of a fine old time* to either notice or care

Also, the rest of the band need to know the song really well! There is no missing your cue and waiting for the band to play another 4 bars** The click and backing don't know you've missed!

*Alchohol was involved

**It's embarrassing to have to halt the click and start again (don't ask me how I know)

[BigRedX]

Last night due to a combination of a tiny stage area and bar geometry trapping the backline sound and a very noisy crowd, the drummer lost the click briefly and our cover of Rio was half a bar behind for the rest of the song. Fortunately only the drummer and I really knew as we are the only ones on IEMs and although the synth arpeggios were a bit weird, everyone was having enough of a fine old time* to either notice or care

Back in the late 90s at the first gig with our new and very good drummer (he was an ex-session player who had previously worked in Nashville) he decided that instead of sticking to the standard "4 on the floor" kick drum intro for our final song, he'd add a bit of interesting syncopation with the result that the rest of the band completely lost the plot rhythmically and we played the whole song half a bar behind the MIDI controlled backing which made the harmonic structure of the song a bit more "interesting" than it would normally have been. At least the rest of the band finished after the backing rather than us stopping and the "invisible synth player" carrying on. Of course no-one other than the band noticed - not even the previous guitarist and drummer who'd come to see us and had played that song when they were in the band.

[sonics]

At least the rest of the band finished after the backing rather than us stopping and the "invisible synth player" carrying on. Of course no-one other than the band noticed - not even the previous guitarist and drummer who'd come to see us and had played that song when they were in the band.

So, so common...

I refuse to work with the Track brothers (Click and Backing); they're so dull, and never have a drink with you after the gig.

[BigRedX]

I refuse to work with the Track brothers (Click and Backing); they're so dull, and never have a drink with you after the gig.

OtOH they don't need a cut of the gig money or get so drunk they are unable to play. Also they don't take forever to set up their kit. The drummer and second synth player for Hurtsfall fit in a 3U rack case and are set up ready to play in less than 5 minutes from arriving in the venue.

[The Elf]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

[Drew Stephenson]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

I'm the songwriter and the lead singer, we're wherever I say we are!

[Sam Spoons]

Me too

[S2]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

I'm the songwriter and the lead singer, we're wherever I say we are!

Which isn’t necessarily where other band members are or think they are…

[Music Wolf]

We're having the backing tracking debate at the moment. Our, very good, drummer is moving on in the NY and rather than taking on whoever we could get we have been testing the waters with backing tracks (we started with our own drum tracks composed using Superior Drummer 3 with the intention that it would be easy for the right replacement drummer to slot in later).

This then opened the door for occasional keyboard parts and extra backing vocals (I use a Boss SY300 for keybord textures and a VoiceLive 2 for additional harmonies). Before you know it we've got a virtual keyboard player to go along with our virtual drummer plus a couple of extra backing singers. We can also switch all of effects patches from the backing track and we could add a light show with a bit of extra kit (and a lot of work). But where do we draw the line? Do I need to sing any backing vocals live or could I just pre-record them and mime (I'll never hit a bum note and I'll have fewer feedback concerns), do we need the bass player? Both I and the other guitarist have been bass players in the past and our bass player takes up space and a share of the meger earnings. Come to that, do I need the other guitarist? I've known him 40 years - but he is taking up stage space. But then does the singer need me?

As it happens we've been approached by a pro drummer (the best musician with whom I have ever worked) who's retiring from touring and wants to play for fun. But then again..............he's more than capable of playing to a click track!

[Drew Stephenson]

Too many decisions!

[Wonks]

Sack the guitarist and go all-electronic.

[MarkOne]

I once read an article about how they put on the live War of the Worlds show.

They had a protools rig running the click and copies of every instrumentalist and singers part, they then ran this and the FOH guy had his console set up so at any time he could punch in the recording if for any reason the live players/singers had an onstage problem.

[BigRedX]

We're having the backing tracking debate at the moment. Our, very good, drummer is moving on in the NY and rather than taking on whoever we could get we have been testing the waters with backing tracks (we started with our own drum tracks composed using Superior Drummer 3 with the intention that it would be easy for the right replacement drummer to slot in later).

This then opened the door for occasional keyboard parts and extra backing vocals (I use a Boss SY300 for keybord textures and a VoiceLive 2 for additional harmonies). Before you know it we've got a virtual keyboard player to go along with our virtual drummer plus a couple of extra backing singers. We can also switch all of effects patches from the backing track and we could add a light show with a bit of extra kit (and a lot of work). But where do we draw the line? Do I need to sing any backing vocals live or could I just pre-record them and mime (I'll never hit a bum note and I'll have fewer feedback concerns), do we need the bass player? Both I and the other guitarist have been bass players in the past and our bass player takes up space and a share of the meger earnings. Come to that, do I need the other guitarist? I've known him 40 years - but he is taking up stage space. But then does the singer need me?

As it happens we've been approached by a pro drummer (the best musician with whom I have ever worked) who's retiring from touring and wants to play for fun. But then again..............he's more than capable of playing to a click track!

Both bands I play with have backing provided by computer and I have noticed a tendency for extra parts to creep into this "just because we can" or "because it's on the studio version".

Since I'm in control of the playback, my policy on this is to reduce the volume of anything I think isn't making a useful contribution to the live sound and if the rest of the band don't notice, I'll carry on reducing the level every time we practice or gig it, until the track volume reaches "0" at which point it gets deleted.

[Drew Stephenson]

Both bands I play with have backing provided by computer and I have noticed a tendency for extra parts to creep into this "just because we can" or "because it's on the studio version".

Since I'm in control of the playback, my policy on this is to reduce the volume of anything I think isn't making a useful contribution to the live sound and if the rest of the band don't notice, I'll carry on reducing the level every time we practice or gig it, until the track volume reaches "0" at which point it gets deleted.

Do you normally provide your own PA or are you at the mercy of the house system?
I'd definitely be following your approach as I'd be very wary of just adding mush to a house system that's "maybe" not as hifi as my studio monitors...

[BigRedX]

Do you normally provide your own PA or are you at the mercy of the house system?
I'd definitely be following your approach as I'd be very wary of just adding mush to a house system that's "maybe" not as hifi as my studio monitors...

As we're playing our own songs everywhere we play has a decent in-house PA. Hurtsfall were on at The Lending Room in Leeds on Saturday, and that's the general level of venue and in-house system we encounter.

Besides I make all my final mix decisions based on what it sounds like in the rehearsal room which is generally a couple of 12" or 15" powered cabs, so if it sounds good there, it will sound excellent with a proper PA.

[Drew Stephenson]