Virtuosity

[merlyn]

It's certainly an oxymoron to have a punk rock virtuoso.

I suspect we're all in agreement there!

Maybe, but there is a tendency towards people wanting to eat their cake and have it. A band that are kind of punk, but people use the word 'genius' and maybe 'virtuoso' around is Cardiacs. You might have heard of Tantacrul. His composition lecturer recommended Cardiacs to him. They have some traction in academic circles evidently. I've tried a few times but I still find it a ghastly racket. I think punk is essentially anti-music, and it doesn't mix with angular, atonal melodies

[Drew Stephenson]

Almost scared to click on that link!

EDIT: ah, wikipedia, that's ok.
I've heard of the Cardiacs but not familiar with their stuff, not heard of Tantacrul though.

[awjoe]

Ghastly Racket is a good punk band name.

[awjoe]

Maybe, but there is a tendency towards people wanting to eat their cake and have it. A band that are kind of punk, but people use the word 'genius' and maybe 'virtuoso' around is [Cardiacs].

Whoa! They're great! Thanks for that - best 'new' music I've come across in a fortnight.

But they're not punk, and they not virtuosos. I deeply suspect they're familiar with Zappa, though.

[Sam Spoons]

I like that a lot too, elements of the Bonzo's and 'Alberto y Lost Trios Paranoias' alongside Zappa.

[Drew Stephenson]

Just having a listen to a track or two and I'm reminded of Suede and Muse.
I don't think I'm musically clever enough to appreciate a lot of it though.
But that happens to me a lot!

[Drew Stephenson]

Just watched Tantacrul's Sibelius video, as someone who always has half an eye on design and accessibility I found it very enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx1wnX ... =Tantacrul

[merlyn]

The real Cardiacs aficionados like a video of them rehearsing the old stuff. It's a stripped down band, and for me that's a relief as it was sometimes the harmony that gave me a twinge. But this is pretty rackety. I think Tim Smith's punk roots are evident in the faces he pulls. Jibber and Twitch from their rehearsal space, dubbed The Rotten Shed.

It's very linear. A lot of it is doubling what Tim is doing, with the whole band in unison. Tim Smith appears to be most comfortable writing melodies or lines. Pretty weird melodies, but it seems endless lines poured out of him. There isn't any harmony in the conventional sense to speak of. I'm not too keen on the sound of triads played with distortion, and these are more of a rhythmic thing with a grating sound to me than chords as such.

[awjoe]

I enjoyed that, and I'm impressed by how fast and tight they are, but I wouldn't call any of them virtuosos. Which is interesting, because each of them is a far better musician than I am. Obviously, 'plays better than awjoe' is not the definition of virtuoso. So, what is? You know what, I'm starting to think that although complete mastery of the instrument (speed, dexterity, nuance, creativity, improvisation, feeling) is necessary to be a virtuoso, that part of the definition is role - if the focal point of the arrangement at any point is your playing - if you take a solo in other words, displaying as many of the above characteristics as are necessary - you're a virtuoso.

[merlyn]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

[RichardT]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

Yes were often on different planets…

[Arpangel]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

Yes were often on different planets…

When I was very young, Yes, seemed to be liked by grammar school boys, I was from a secondary modern, and I was listening to Bach, The Shadows, The Beatles, and Morton Subotnic.
Hated Yes, still do, the thinking man’s James Last.

[Sam Spoons]

Yes, ... the thinking man’s James Last.

I (mostly) love Yes but I love that description too

[OneWorld]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

Yes were often on different planets…

When I was very young, Yes, seemed to be liked by grammar school boys, I was from a secondary modern, and I was listening to Bach, The Shadows, The Beatles, and Morton Subotnic.
Hated Yes, still do, the thinking man’s James Last.

I think I am a virtuoso listener but I think a lot of Yes's stuff was harder to listen to than it would have been to play it. I had a brief dalliance with Yes and other Prog Rock bands yes they did give impressive and expansive performances but at the end of each interminable extemporization I always ended up asking myself "Yes, but what are they trying to say" and I went back to listening to Donovan or Bob Dylan and on party nights Barry White or Stevie Wonder

[Arpangel]

I think I am a virtuoso listener but I think a lot of Yes's stuff was harder to listen to than it would have been to play it. I had a brief dalliance with Yes and other Prog Rock bands yes they did give impressive and expansive performances but at the end of each interminable extemporization I always ended up asking myself "Yes, but what are they trying to say" and I went back to listening to Donovan or Bob Dylan and on party nights Barry White or Stevie Wonder

Yes just didn’t press any buttons for me, completely emotionless music to my ears. It wasn’t nice and spacey, it wasn’t mysterious, it was, over pompous, cheesy melodies, and it was "clever-clever"
I started to listen to King Crimson, completely different, very interesting I thought, the playing was at the service of the music, not gratuitous, and there was lots to think about.
ELP were also a step ahead, beautiful songs, completely fused with tasteful virtuosity, and of course, entertaining showmanship.
The good thing about Yes was Rick Wakeman, when he went solo, but even Rick started to loose it a bit with all that King Arthur stuff.

[sonics]

ELP were...completely fused with tasteful virtuosity...

I've never heard the average ELP-hater use that phrase.

Interesting to me is how your descriptions of those three seminal bands are so different from mine! I have enjoyed works by all three groups, but the only member I would describe as a virtuoso is Keith Emerson. Prog bands are always greater than the sum of their parts. That's the special thing about music groups in general.

[GilesAnt]

ELP were...completely fused with tasteful virtuosity...

the only member I would describe as a virtuoso is Keith Emerson.

Probably amongst the nearest to a virtuoso that the rock world has produced, but there is a video of him with Oscar Peterson playing Honky Tonk Train Blues which rather puts him into perspective in my view.

I suspect Emerson, Wakeman and others were knowledgeable enough to know they weren't true virtuosi (if that's the word) compared to the giants of the jazz and classical worlds.

Nothing wrong with being pretty damned good though.

[sonics]

...there is a video of him with Oscar Peterson playing Honky Tonk Train Blues which rather puts him into perspective in my view.

Indeed...but Oscar couldn't throw a Hammond around.

I suspect Emerson, Wakeman and others were knowledgeable enough to know they weren't true virtuosi (if that's the word) compared to the giants of the jazz and classical worlds.

Most good musicians know how good they really are IME. They may not talk about it, though. It's the bad ones that think they're great.

[tea for two]

It's the bad ones that think they're great.

I'm great

I think virtuosos are and have to be one trick ponies but by heck are they spectacular at this one trick.
They can't dedicate their life to two tricks as it would take two lifetimes.

Oscar was pretty spectacular at what he could do on a Piano in his specific styles probably not so hot on a Hammond nor Moog Modular as Keith.
They should formed a band Pete Em and Sons lol.
There is a utube vid of Oscar sitting with Synths talking about the possibilities.

Drumming is same.
There's virtuoso Jazz drummers that would give up on Metal Blast Beats lol.
Similarly one of my favourite drummers Manu Katché subtle drumming with so much colour a virtuoso at what he does, is not so hot as a Funk drummer.
Whereas Omar Hakim is a virtuoso Funk drummer yet can't hold a candle to Manu Katché when it is playing with colour on drums.

[OneWorld]

I think I am a virtuoso listener but I think a lot of Yes's stuff was harder to listen to than it would have been to play it. I had a brief dalliance with Yes and other Prog Rock bands yes they did give impressive and expansive performances but at the end of each interminable extemporization I always ended up asking myself "Yes, but what are they trying to say" and I went back to listening to Donovan or Bob Dylan and on party nights Barry White or Stevie Wonder

Yes just didn’t press any buttons for me, completely emotionless music to my ears. It wasn’t nice and spacey, it wasn’t mysterious, it was, over pompous, cheesy melodies, and it was "clever-clever"
I started to listen to King Crimson, completely different, very interesting I thought, the playing was at the service of the music, not gratuitous, and there was lots to think about.
ELP were also a step ahead, beautiful songs, completely fused with tasteful virtuosity, and of course, entertaining showmanship.
The good thing about Yes was Rick Wakeman, when he went solo, but even Rick started to loose it a bit with all that King Arthur stuff.

Yep well put.

I guess the old term for all the flourishes and flamboyance is known as - Over Egging the Pudding, the adherence to More's Law - "If More is Better, The Too Much is Just Right"

[Arpangel]

I think I am a virtuoso listener but I think a lot of Yes's stuff was harder to listen to than it would have been to play it. I had a brief dalliance with Yes and other Prog Rock bands yes they did give impressive and expansive performances but at the end of each interminable extemporization I always ended up asking myself "Yes, but what are they trying to say" and I went back to listening to Donovan or Bob Dylan and on party nights Barry White or Stevie Wonder

Yes just didn’t press any buttons for me, completely emotionless music to my ears. It wasn’t nice and spacey, it wasn’t mysterious, it was, over pompous, cheesy melodies, and it was "clever-clever"
I started to listen to King Crimson, completely different, very interesting I thought, the playing was at the service of the music, not gratuitous, and there was lots to think about.
ELP were also a step ahead, beautiful songs, completely fused with tasteful virtuosity, and of course, entertaining showmanship.
The good thing about Yes was Rick Wakeman, when he went solo, but even Rick started to loose it a bit with all that King Arthur stuff.

Yep well put.

I guess the old term for all the flourishes and flamboyance is known as - Over Egging the Pudding, the adherence to More's Law - "If More is Better, The Too Much is Just Right"

I’ve just watched a video about the allied push, in the trenches in France, WW1
It puts things into very sharp perspective, regarding criticism of anything, and anybody.
We’ve take music so seriously sometimes.

[OneWorld]

I think I am a virtuoso listener but I think a lot of Yes's stuff was harder to listen to than it would have been to play it. I had a brief dalliance with Yes and other Prog Rock bands yes they did give impressive and expansive performances but at the end of each interminable extemporization I always ended up asking myself "Yes, but what are they trying to say" and I went back to listening to Donovan or Bob Dylan and on party nights Barry White or Stevie Wonder

Yes just didn’t press any buttons for me, completely emotionless music to my ears. It wasn’t nice and spacey, it wasn’t mysterious, it was, over pompous, cheesy melodies, and it was "clever-clever"
I started to listen to King Crimson, completely different, very interesting I thought, the playing was at the service of the music, not gratuitous, and there was lots to think about.
ELP were also a step ahead, beautiful songs, completely fused with tasteful virtuosity, and of course, entertaining showmanship.
The good thing about Yes was Rick Wakeman, when he went solo, but even Rick started to loose it a bit with all that King Arthur stuff.

Yep well put.

I guess the old term for all the flourishes and flamboyance is known as - Over Egging the Pudding, the adherence to More's Law - "If More is Better, The Too Much is Just Right"

I’ve just watched a video about the allied push, in the trenches in France, WW1
It puts things into very sharp perspective, regarding criticism of anything, and anybody.
We’ve take music so seriously sometimes.

Any comments or critique of music, I think, is generally taken in the context of music. And so within that universe of discourse the comments have some potency, outwith that domain they are trivial or even unworthy, but I imagine anyone with half a brain would know that anyway?

[Arpangel]

but I imagine anyone with half a brain would know that anyway?

I think I may have met more than one person who obviously has a lot less than half.
As a good friend of mine, an eminent and very successful musician, once said, I’d never kill anyone because of their taste in music.
So what would you kill them for? I asked.

[tea for two]

Just watched Tantacrul's Sibelius video, as someone who always has half an eye on design and accessibility I found it very enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx1wnX ... =Tantacrul

I clicked on it thinking it was going to be about Finnish composer Jean Sibelius. Doh. Lol.

::

Yes were often on different planets…

I read this as : yes we are often on different planets....
Lol.

::

James Last.

I always thought James Last was from these isles goes to show how little I know about music.
100 million records sold wow.
In his concerts people are dancing smiling : gosh to be able to take people away from their troubles worries for a couple hours I would feel over the moon to be able to do this.