Virtuosity

[awjoe]

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.

https://youtu.be/qWG2dsXV5HI

[GilesAnt]

My premise is that it is possible to have a virtuoso performance of material that does not technically require a virtuoso to play.

Yes I think you can - a performance is more than just playing the right notes after all. But nevertheless I would say that the usual definition of virtuoso means a performer who can play music of the highest technical demands.

I also agree with the point made a little way back that we should separate the virtuoso performer from the composer/arranger. In other words you might appreciate the technical skill of Wakeman, Peterson, Tatum etc at the keyboard and yet dislike their music.

[merlyn]

@blinddrew Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I don't have a beef with singer/songwriters. They spend their time writing, no? so have less time for practising their instrument. A singer/songwriter's work doesn't need to be virtuosic. I've seen Richard Thompson twice, and he's good, but I didn't think he was a virtuoso. A good musician, yes, and I'm sure you'd agree he's not a great singer in the conventional sense. That didn't matter.

Using Frank Zappa's definition of "playing anything" there are not many virtuosos.

One aspect is that calling Boo Hewerdine a virtuoso sets a low bar. It seems music journalist pretentious, where column inches are filled with gush about the latest flavour of the month. In a world of Ed Sheeran, anyone who can play even a bit is a candidate for virtuoso status.

There shouldn't be a dichotomy between technical and musical. Fast or difficult passages should come out as music in the hands of a virtuoso.

[N i g e l]

Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.
https://youtu.be/qWG2dsXV5HI

also on the same CD is "EQUINOX"
[its on spotify too]
In the pre WWW time, I thought, "thats the bloke that did Sweeny" !

JC Equinox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2HN2y0yV8
Sweeny open + end titles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix6wTN_CH4g

[tea for two]

JC for me is my biggest influence when I'm trying to play a lead line.
I know it doesn't sound like it as I don't get anywhere near but he is.
In my mind I'm trying to approach JC's free and raw and searing.

Blues is my 2nd biggest influence the short phrases (licks) with each phrase being similar in notes yet different sounding.

Miles is my 3rd influence concise with lots of space in between
: easiest for me as I can't play many notes lol also I need the space to find the next bit to play lol.

:

Sweeny.
What happened to our memorable TV theme tunes from 60s 70s 80s that we could hum and whistle.
Sweeny as soon as Sax started it jogged my memory I could hum and whistle it's theme.

Even movie themes of that era we could hum and whistle.

[merlyn]

I would suggest virtuoso is a mostly classical music thing, where practicing eight hours a day is the norm.

Classical, jazz, rock, bluegrass. Chris Thile's a virtuoso, and so's Billy Strings.

As you may have guessed I hadn't heard Billy Strings. (I'd join you for a hoe-down, but my denim dungarees are in the wash. Honest.) I found this performance. I would wonder if you heard Billy Strings' music and thought "virtuoso", or if you read that somewhere. If Billy Strings is a virtuoso then what are the rest of the band? They can all do the running sixteenth note bluegrass solo thing. In fact I thought Billy's solo was the weakest, although he did try something other than a stream of sixteenth notes. Are they all virtuosos? Or are all bluegrass musicians virtuosos?

Billy Strings seems to me like an accomplished professional musician with good picking technique. I think virtuoso is a bit more than that.

There's such a thing as a rock virtuoso, is there? That may be a stretch. It's certainly an oxymoron to have a punk rock virtuoso.

[Drew Stephenson]

It's certainly an oxymoron to have a punk rock virtuoso.

I suspect we're all in agreement there!

[awjoe]

Hey, everybody's a virtuoso compared to me, except maybe Johnny Cash and Aldous Harding. In fact, I think that many of the comments in this thread are awjoe-phobic and deeply offensive. Don't be surprised if bannings follow.

[merlyn]

It's certainly an oxymoron to have a punk rock virtuoso.

I suspect we're all in agreement there!

Maybe, but there is a tendency towards people wanting to eat their cake and have it. A band that are kind of punk, but people use the word 'genius' and maybe 'virtuoso' around is Cardiacs. You might have heard of Tantacrul. His composition lecturer recommended Cardiacs to him. They have some traction in academic circles evidently. I've tried a few times but I still find it a ghastly racket. I think punk is essentially anti-music, and it doesn't mix with angular, atonal melodies

[Drew Stephenson]

Almost scared to click on that link!

EDIT: ah, wikipedia, that's ok.
I've heard of the Cardiacs but not familiar with their stuff, not heard of Tantacrul though.

[awjoe]

Ghastly Racket is a good punk band name.

[awjoe]

Maybe, but there is a tendency towards people wanting to eat their cake and have it. A band that are kind of punk, but people use the word 'genius' and maybe 'virtuoso' around is [Cardiacs].

Whoa! They're great! Thanks for that - best 'new' music I've come across in a fortnight.

But they're not punk, and they not virtuosos. I deeply suspect they're familiar with Zappa, though.

[Sam Spoons]

I like that a lot too, elements of the Bonzo's and 'Alberto y Lost Trios Paranoias' alongside Zappa.

[Drew Stephenson]

Just having a listen to a track or two and I'm reminded of Suede and Muse.
I don't think I'm musically clever enough to appreciate a lot of it though.
But that happens to me a lot!

[Drew Stephenson]

Just watched Tantacrul's Sibelius video, as someone who always has half an eye on design and accessibility I found it very enjoyable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx1wnX ... =Tantacrul

[merlyn]

The real Cardiacs aficionados like a video of them rehearsing the old stuff. It's a stripped down band, and for me that's a relief as it was sometimes the harmony that gave me a twinge. But this is pretty rackety. I think Tim Smith's punk roots are evident in the faces he pulls. Jibber and Twitch from their rehearsal space, dubbed The Rotten Shed.

It's very linear. A lot of it is doubling what Tim is doing, with the whole band in unison. Tim Smith appears to be most comfortable writing melodies or lines. Pretty weird melodies, but it seems endless lines poured out of him. There isn't any harmony in the conventional sense to speak of. I'm not too keen on the sound of triads played with distortion, and these are more of a rhythmic thing with a grating sound to me than chords as such.

[awjoe]

I enjoyed that, and I'm impressed by how fast and tight they are, but I wouldn't call any of them virtuosos. Which is interesting, because each of them is a far better musician than I am. Obviously, 'plays better than awjoe' is not the definition of virtuoso. So, what is? You know what, I'm starting to think that although complete mastery of the instrument (speed, dexterity, nuance, creativity, improvisation, feeling) is necessary to be a virtuoso, that part of the definition is role - if the focal point of the arrangement at any point is your playing - if you take a solo in other words, displaying as many of the above characteristics as are necessary - you're a virtuoso.

[merlyn]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

[RichardT]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

Yes were often on different planets…

[Arpangel]

Do you think that's more punky? The raw energy of punk with the fiddleyness of prog. Could call it pronk. The Sex Pistols play a Yes song. On acid. On a different planet.

Yes were often on different planets…

When I was very young, Yes, seemed to be liked by grammar school boys, I was from a secondary modern, and I was listening to Bach, The Shadows, The Beatles, and Morton Subotnic.
Hated Yes, still do, the thinking man’s James Last.