Keyboard amp vs powered speaker for better piano sound?

[DC-Choppah]

I have been getting a lot of calls to play play piano. When I need an electric piano because the room has no piano, I bring my axe and use a powered PA speaker.

The tone of the piano through this speaker has a honkiness in the midrange I can't tame, like it sticks out when a key is struck too hard, the bass is very strong and hard to control, boomy, and the highs are bit brash. I also get complaints that folks can't hear the piano even though the sound is loud?!? Like the speaker is too directional. Too loud in one direction and not in another.

When I record the piano DI I like the tone, but the tone through the speaker is not to my liking anymore. I played a lot with EQ but it seems to be the speaker itself.

Recently I played at a studio with a large Roland keyboard amp with much larger speakers, and I felt that the sound was much more to my liking. It spread out more and was less directional, and sounded more like the piano sound I like from recording the piano. I could control it more.

Is there something about a PA speaker that is giving me these unwanted features?!

So I am thinking of upping my game to a keyboard amp to play gigs.

Just wondering if anyone has had similar experience or thoughts on going to a keyboard amp over a powered PA speaker. And if you have any recommendation for a keyboard amp, I am all ears.

I mainly go for a real piano sound, or Rhoads or jazz organ sound, but mainly straight piano. I play jazz.

I would prefer to just bring my grand piano with me!

[shufflebeat]

There are powered PA speakers, and then there are powered PA speakers. You don't say which you are using.

In it's most basic form a keys amp, acoustic guitar amp and a powered PA speaker are all the same thing but sometimes with added gadgets and tweaks to facilitate a certain quality of performance.

Some PA speakers are designed to have a limited bandwidth but good projection, which sounds like your situation, and others designed to sound big at lower levels but not necessarily scale up in volume. In this category I'd put the Yamaha msr100 (old version of the Stagepas) and the Bose s1, both of which I hear keyboard players enthuse about.

Many "acoustic guitar" amplifiers, including those by Fishman and Schertler are evolving to accommodate vocals for solo performers and I would expect those to be well spec'd for keys as well as acoustic guitar can be a hard one to amplify without harshness.

More recently we have seen the advent of FRFR speakers (full range, flat response), ostensibly for electric guitar players using amp simulators but which are being employed by all and everyone to good effect.

Lots to explore.

[Arpangel]

I’d say you need a good PA speaker for pianos/keyboards, but, I’d use them with a good small mixer, with decent EQ, you only need 2/4 inputs, that way you can customise the sound to your liking, you do need a nice big stealer though, digital pianos do benefit from a nice full bass response, otherwise they can sound a bit thin and lifeless.

[Wonks]

Quite a few guitar FRFR speakers are rebadged PA speakers. Certainly the HeadRush range are just rebadged Alto TS3xx speakers.

As Shufflebeat says, there are PA speakers and PA speakers. Some are mid-forward, some are mid-light and the better ones are pretty flat. Knowing the make/model of yours will help here.

Keyboard amps don't employ any special technology compared to PA speakers, though they will invariably use larger wooden cabinets and so may sound less naturally boxy than some plastic enclosures on PA speakers.

Are you using any tone controls at all? If not, a small mixer with at least bass mid and treble controls (though a semi-parametric mid would be better) would be useful.

How are you using the PA speaker? If it's sitting on the floor on its side like a monitor, then a) the main sound is being directed up over the heads of the audience and b) the HF horn dispersion is in the wrong direction, so you may only be getting ±30° of HF in a horizontal direction and ±45° in the vertical, so people off to the sides won't hear any treble at all.

Any speaker will need to be raised up on a stand or platform for best coverage. Even then, a single (standard PA one-box with horn + main driver) speaker will be limited in its dispersion angle (typically 90° x 60°), and so to give the same coverage as a typical two-speaker PA system, you'll need two speakers.

It sounds like a stick+sub line-array style of speaker (e.g Bose L1) may be a better choice for coverage and sound. Some go louder than others, though if you are playing background music rather than a full-on gig, you may not need a huge SPL.

[adamburgess]

I'm a keys player and have tried just about all 'keyboard' amps (Roland, Laney, Peavey etc etc) and hated each and every one**. They all sounded the way you described the PA speaker!

Normal PA monitors - if supplied around my neck of the woods, they're usually somewhere between a wooden EV/Yamaha up to RCF TT+ and better if I'm lucky. Sometimes, they're a no-name/clone plastic mess of heartache, or only slightly nicer… a Mackie 450.

Some are obviously better than others. What sort of price range/model were the ones you've tried?

I do a little duo gig now and again with a vocal/sax player, and she has a Bose L1S system that has been great for small jobs. I really like it.

**Apart from a HUGE Yamaha 3 way 4-channel combo from the 80s. Someone stole that and never got the thing back. That was a great sounding beast! The mid range speaker (8", maybe?) really helped a lot!

EDITED: Found the last ever great keyboard amp… The Yamaha KS531

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/o ... KS531E.PDF

[shufflebeat]

EDITED: Found the last ever great keyboard amp… The Roland JC120

FTFY

[adamburgess]

The Roland has wheels, at least!

Was curious…

28kg for a JC120, which is a 'nice to have' for a few sounds
36.2kg for the only 'full range' keyboard amp I've ever liked

I must've been stupid taking that to gigs!
I pity the fool who stole it. Hope it hurt!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Without knowing what PA speakers you're using it's impossible to identify the likely problem.... but I do think it's more likely to be the specific speaker rather than the concept.

I'd second the recommendation for a lightweight line+sub system like the Bose L1 which will give you good dispersion and a reasonably neutral sound, while also being a lot more portable than a large amp.

[tea for two]

I'm sure this is a terrible idea and you must have already considered this.

Hifi amp, Hifi speakers.

I did this as a teen with family Hifi lol.
Hardly the level for you.
Still
as family liked the sound of the Hifi they liked the sound of Keyboard going through the Hifi.

I would hazard a guess your audience are similar in that the Hifi sound pleases them.

[DC-Choppah]

I am using a QSC CP 12.

It's great and reliable. Well made and easy to haul around. Seems well suited as a PA speaker for small rooms. I don't want to disrespect it for what it is.

[DC-Choppah]

Without knowing what PA speakers you're using it's impossible to identify the likely problem.... but I do think it's more likely to be the specific speaker rather than the concept.

I'd second the recommendation for a lightweight line+sub system like the Bose L1 which will give you good dispersion and a reasonably neutral sound, while also being a lot more portable than a large amp.

Bose L1. They even show a piano player using it.

I am going to have to find a music store where I can try one out.

[DC-Choppah]

I'm a keys player and have tried just about all 'keyboard' amps (Roland, Laney, Peavey etc etc) and hated each and every one**. They all sounded the way you described the PA speaker!

Thank you for that. Glad it is not just my ears. You hear it too. It's a feeling too.

I wish someone would crack this portable piano nut!!

I love when I show up and there is a beautiful grand piano, freshly tuned. I feel like a king, and we get into some music!

Then I have to bring the electric piano to a venue. And I am fussing around trying to get it to sound and feel just Ok.

[ef37a]

"I love when I show up and there is a beautiful grand piano, freshly tuned. I feel like a king, and we get into some music!"

And when that^ happens Chops' is the piano micc'ed up and if so find out what the PA is!

If the Joe is not 'amp'ed' up and you only need its acoustic effort, you could get away with the aforementioned 'hi fi' rig?

Dave.

[adamburgess]

I love when I show up and there is a beautiful grand piano, freshly tuned. I feel like a king, and we get into some music!

Then I have to bring the electric piano to a venue. And I am fussing around trying to get it to sound and feel just Ok.

Yup - especially solo. Just feeling the resonances thru the keys alone makes me comfortable.

I play a Young Chang baby grand a few times a week. It's not great, some intervals make me cringe before hitting them, and has the odd sticky key at the moment because of the changing weather, but I'd take it over my $3000 Kronos and a pair of $2000 speakers any day.

Anyway, good luck in your quest! I'd definitely try a Bose stick thing - just left flat EQ-wise, it sounds good with my Kronos and MainStage stuff. And they look pretty discreet for certain environments.

[Wonks]

The recorded sound you like is presumably stereo. I’m assuming that you do have the one CP12 so the sound is mono. Is there something that happens to the keyboard sound when used in mono?

I’ve seen complaints about the mono sound
of a keyboard not being as good as the stereo sound before on the forum. Could that be the case here? If so, changing the speaker might not make as much difference to the sound as you think and a stereo rig or a keyboard that sounds good in mono might be a better option.

With respect to coverage, you still haven’t said how the speaker is mounted when you play. Do you get it so the speaker is just above the audience head height or is it sat on the floor like a monitor?

The QSC data sheet indicates a 90°x90° dispersion pattern for the HF unit. Which is good in some instances, but the wide vertical dispersion means that a lot more of the sound is bouncing off the ceiling (compared to a speaker with a tighter vertical dispersion) and could be making the sound less distinct due to comb filtering effects at higher frequencies.

[DC-Choppah]

The recorded sound you like is presumably stereo. I’m assuming that you do have the one CP12 so the sound is mono. Is there something that happens to the keyboard sound when used in mono?

I only have one.

With respect to coverage, you still haven’t said how the speaker is mounted when you play.

I put it up at my ear height, sitting on a crate or chair, behind me and off to one side. I am trying to use the QSC as a monitor, and share the sound with everyone else. I may play with all acoustic instruments, where I am the only one plugged in. Or we may have a full sound system and sound man which usually works out much better!

The QSC has settings: I leave the processor on ''Default with External Subwoofer'. This setting makes the bass less boomy and more manageable.

To connect to the QSC, I come out of the Yamaha MX88 mono audio jack into a passive direct box and then into the mic input of the QSC. The boost button is engaged on the QSC, and the gain is set to maximum.

If I try to come out of the MX88 directly into the line input of the QSC, the volume is very low and not usable, since the output of the MX88 is quite low. Yamaha says this is by design since the keyboard is capable of layering so many sounds.

[forumuser647509]

Bit late to the chat, but in my experiences with trying to get the best sound from a digital piano, the l'acoustics speakers are without doubt top of the league.
I only got to use them at events with PA supplied. The 12" and 8" are full of detail, warmth and are so even across the octaves. By that I mean there's no honking or dips in sound from low notes to high. I know they're fortunes and would never buy them for myself! However, on this forum a good few years ago, I got some great info from guys about the RCF TT 08's. I was tempted to buy a pair at that point but felt the price was out of my budget. I finally bought the TT 08 mk 2 last year and have to say they're really very close to the l'acoustics in sound quality; if not the same. There also a lot cheaper. I think 8" speakers are best for Digital piano. The QSC K8.2 are also exceptional. Very smooth and warm. The only problem with them; they tend to top out at higher volumes. I tried the K10.2 and compared to the 8, it sounded like a different brand, too sharp and cutting for my liking. All of the above 8" also sound great for my vocals too. I use an Allen and Heath zed 6 FX mixer with them. Re the Bose L1;
I think there's a lack of low mids for Digital piano sounds. I don't dislike them, just don't find them suitable for piano sounds.

[skipper01]

I use the original QSC K8s with my stage piano for gigs and they are really really good.
Always been reliable for me too.