Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by tea for two »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:15 pm I'd be much happier with these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Y3VDUhKmw

because I know I'll get pin sharp imaging and the ability to hear tiny eq changes.

I wouldn't mind hearing some of my pieces through this.
I recall when I checked out £3K headphones Hifiman He1000se it was a revelation in that I was shocked some of my pieces sounded rather alright : tbh I was a bit blown away.
So to hear through these Tannoy Arden with proper setup amp room so forth.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Tannoy speakers of that vintage are great at pulling mixes apart and letting you hear everything that is going on. They are also very efficient so don't need a huge amp to play loud - which they can happily do all day.

I use the slightly smaller Berkeleys in the studio. I've compared them with the Neumann KH120 and there isn't a massive difference in balance. The Tannoy bass sounds a little more effortless and deeper while its imaging is more precise but if I was using the Neumann monitors my mix decisions would be very similar. I've not heard the Neumann DSP monitors but I would expect them to be approaching closer to the Tannoys for imaging - and probably give a flatter response than the Tannoys.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

My brother had Tannoy 'Little Reds', driven from what was then, a monster Tandberg 100W, per channel, into 8ohms receiver. We used them as monitors following recording via the Otari multi-track mentioned in another thread. They were very good indeed.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

jimjazzdad wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:46 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:17 am I remember a time when engineers used "proper" speakers, no messing about.
Monitors are like a window onto your sound, the bigger the window, the more you can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSDVnO5gFYk

I’d love a pair of these, especially in my basement.

:D

Yes, they would sound so good when your fed them your latest mix as an MP3 via Bluetooth from your iPhone...
:headbang:

I wouldn’t sully them with anything remotely digital, it would have to be tape, wouldn’t it.

:D
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by tea for two »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:49 pm Tannoy speakers of that vintage are great at pulling mixes apart and letting you hear everything that is going on. They are also very efficient so don't need a huge amp to play loud - which they can happily do all day.

I use the slightly smaller Berkeleys in the studio. I've compared them with the Neumann KH120 and there isn't a massive difference in balance. The Tannoy bass sounds a little more effortless and deeper while its imaging is more precise but if I was using the Neumann monitors my mix decisions would be very similar. I've not heard the Neumann DSP monitors but I would expect them to be approaching closer to the Tannoys for imaging - and probably give a flatter response than the Tannoys.

Are these Tannoy vintage more forgiving of room than modern monitors as I don't have any room treatment : my studio I don't have a studio lol.

Are there any Tannoy or other of that vintage from 1970s around the £200 that you would recommend.

Much as I would like the Berkeley £3K is quite beyond what I could currently afford let alone the £5K Arden.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

James Perrett wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:49 pm Tannoy speakers of that vintage are great at pulling mixes apart and letting you hear everything that is going on. They are also very efficient so don't need a huge amp to play loud - which they can happily do all day.

I use the slightly smaller Berkeleys in the studio. I've compared them with the Neumann KH120 and there isn't a massive difference in balance. The Tannoy bass sounds a little more effortless and deeper while its imaging is more precise but if I was using the Neumann monitors my mix decisions would be very similar. I've not heard the Neumann DSP monitors but I would expect them to be approaching closer to the Tannoys for imaging - and probably give a flatter response than the Tannoys.

James, are you using the 120’s with a sub?

tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:52 am
Are there any Tannoy or other of that vintage from 1970s around the £200 that you would recommend.

Not around £200, plus they are being picked up by hi-fi and vintage nuts, which is driving up prices, you’re looking at thousands now, rather than hundreds.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Wonks »

tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:52 am Are these Tannoy vintage more forgiving of room than modern monitors as I don't have any room treatment : my studio I don't have a studio lol.

Physics is physics, so as the speakers cover the same frequency range as current speakers, the answer is no. You'll get the same problems with older as with newer speakers.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Arpangel wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:53 am James, are you using the 120’s with a sub?

I don't have a pair of my own - someone brought a pair to the studio to compare with the monitors I have here and I have also used them to mix on at another place. I've never used them with a sub - they have a good amount of bass on their own for most purposes although, if you really want to know what is happening below 50Hz, you would need a sub.

Arpangel wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:53 am
tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:52 am
Are there any Tannoy or other of that vintage from 1970s around the £200 that you would recommend.

Not around £200, plus they are being picked up by hi-fi and vintage nuts, which is driving up prices, you’re looking at thousands now, rather than hundreds.

The vintage Tannoys are pretty much all over £1000 these days although you can pick up the smaller slightly more modern dual concentric designs for less. I'm afraid that I'm not so familiar with these so I don't know how much of the sound is retained. Behringer also make modern versions of the smaller dual concentric designs but they seem reluctant to send them out for review so I've no idea if they are any good or not.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Wonks wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:48 am
tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:52 am Are these Tannoy vintage more forgiving of room than modern monitors as I don't have any room treatment : my studio I don't have a studio lol.

Physics is physics, so as the speakers cover the same frequency range as current speakers, the answer is no. You'll get the same problems with older as with newer speakers.

I think the only things that start to play into this kind of space are speakers that are designed to have a cardiod pattern right down to the lower frequencies. I think Gethain and Kii have models that do this but they're making the Tannoys look cheap. ;)
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Wonks wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:48 am
tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:52 am Are these Tannoy vintage more forgiving of room than modern monitors as I don't have any room treatment : my studio I don't have a studio lol.

Physics is physics, so as the speakers cover the same frequency range as current speakers, the answer is no. You'll get the same problems with older as with newer speakers.

I'd mainly agree with Wonks BUT the big difference with the dual concentric design is that you can work with them much closer than you can with a traditional multi-speaker design. In one temporary setup I had the Berkeleys less than a metre away from me which meant that the proportion of direct to reflected sound was far higher than usual. Many people would find a pair of huge monitors directly in front of them too oppressive but it worked for me.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

Not around £200, plus they are being picked up by hi-fi and vintage nuts, which is driving up prices, you’re looking at thousands now, rather than hundreds.


Tannoy dual concentrics, in good condition, have never been inexpensive on the used market. The same goes for other speaker manufacturers, e.g. ATC, PMC, Harbeth, Spendor, etc..
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

Nazard wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:59 pm
Not around £200, plus they are being picked up by hi-fi and vintage nuts, which is driving up prices, you’re looking at thousands now, rather than hundreds.


Tannoy dual concentrics, in good condition, have never been inexpensive on the used market. The same goes for other speaker manufacturers, e.g. ATC, PMC, Harbeth, Spendor, etc..

I picked up my Cheviots for £300 around about 1989, from a dealer.
But now you’re looking at two grand plus.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by tea for two »

Ah well there goes that plan out the window lol.

I wouldn't even play them half volume in the flat as there are families either side as well as above and below.

If I had funds I'd have a studio built with three sets of upto £20K speakers a few tasty mics amps mixers outboard, open it up for long standing SoS forumees to listen to their pieces mix record (for free ofcourse). Leave them to it. BYOG bring your own gear.
Forumees could take as long as they want (not a year lol). It would have an adjoining BnB guest apartment to stay in (for free ofcourse).

I recall Steve Hill had something like this in proper country grounds. Although it was a necessary commercial venture for Steve.
I'd loved to have visited it if it was still there with Steve running it. I'm sure some forumees went there at the time.

(For those newer to SoS, Steve was a mod on SoS over a decade earlier in the noughties).
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

tea for two wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:25 pm If I had funds I'd have a studio built with three sets of upto £20K speakers a few tasty mics amps mixers outboard, open it up for long standing SoS forumees to listen to their pieces mix record (for free ofcourse). Leave them to it. BYOG bring your own gear.
Forumees could take as long as they want (not a year lol). It would have an adjoining BnB guest apartment to stay in (for free ofcourse).

I recall Steve Hill had something like this in proper country grounds. Although it was a necessary commercial venture for Steve.
I'd loved to have visited it if it was still there with Steve running it. I'm sure some forumees went there at the time.

I recorded at Steve's place although I left most of the technical stuff to Steve because I had my musician's hat on for that session. While Steve is no longer running it, the studio is still going

https://www.woodwormstudios.co.uk/

and the rooms look similar to how they were though the gear is different.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Arpangel wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:10 pm I picked up my Cheviots for £300 around about 1989, from a dealer.
But now you’re looking at two grand plus.

My Berkeleys were slightly cheaper privately. I saw some on Ebay for £1200 a few months ago so there are bargains to be had if you are patient. The only thing with this generation of Tannoys is that the surrounds fail after 20 years or so and require replacement. They are made to be easily serviceable so reconing or surround repair can be done by a patient user and parts seem to be still available.

I've also found out recently that mine have some history. Some people will probably know that I've been working on some of the Toyah re-releases over the last few years but in the late 70's my speakers belonged to Tony Arnold (of Arny's Shack) and were apparently used back then to mix an album by Toyah's husband, Robert Fripp.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

James Perrett wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:33 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:10 pm I picked up my Cheviots for £300 around about 1989, from a dealer.
But now you’re looking at two grand plus.

My Berkeleys were slightly cheaper privately. I saw some on Ebay for £1200 a few months ago so there are bargains to be had if you are patient. The only thing with this generation of Tannoys is that the surrounds fail after 20 years or so and require replacement. They are made to be easily serviceable so reconing or surround repair can be done by a patient user and parts seem to be still available.

I've also found out recently that mine have some history. Some people will probably know that I've been working on some of the Toyah re-releases over the last few years but in the late 70's my speakers belonged to Tony Arnold (of Arny's Shack) and were apparently used back then to mix an album by Toyah's husband, Robert Fripp.

James! this is more than coincidence, I bought a BEL BD80 from that studio, I know it well, they had a big old desk, Raindkirk?
It’s amazing to think that our stuff may have been used on Fripp's music, I think the album that was recorded there was a Fripp/Summers collaboration "I Advance Masked"
Re-coning any speaker fills me with horror, it’s a bit like asking me to make a pair of hand made shoes, it’s an incredibly skilled job, I’ve seen videos, and it’s just beyond, I couldn’t imagine doing it, thankfully, there are still people out there doing it!
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Arpangel wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:11 am
James Perrett wrote: I've also found out recently that mine have some history. Some people will probably know that I've been working on some of the Toyah re-releases over the last few years but in the late 70's my speakers belonged to Tony Arnold (of Arny's Shack) and were apparently used back then to mix an album by Toyah's husband, Robert Fripp.

James! this is more than coincidence, I bought a BEL BD80 from that studio, I know it well, they had a big old desk, Raindkirk?

Tony Arnold used to buy and sell quite a bit of stuff though I never actually bought anything directly from him so never saw the studio. I would guess most studios in the south of England would have bought at least one bit of kit from Tony.

Arpangel wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:11 am
It’s amazing to think that our stuff may have been used on Fripp's music, I think the album that was recorded there was a Fripp/Summers collaboration "I Advance Masked"
Re-coning any speaker fills me with horror, it’s a bit like asking me to make a pair of hand made shoes, it’s an incredibly skilled job, I’ve seen videos, and it’s just beyond, I couldn’t imagine doing it, thankfully, there are still people out there doing it!

I think Robert Fripp recorded a few albums there - it was fairly local to him in those days. There are manufacturing date stamps from late 1976 on the cabinets of these speakers so I would guess that they were first used sometime in 1977.

They are remarkably easy to recone provided you follow the instructions properly. There's no gluing needed because everything is clamped down with bolts. The most difficult part of the process was centring the coil in the gap which took a couple of attempts.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

There’s a great article about Arny's Shack, and Tony, in Studio Sound magazine, a 70’s issue, you can view it on the American radio history site, which you probably already know about.
I have a copy of that magazine, I’ll get the month and post a link to the issue.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

I think I've found it

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-A ... 984-02.pdf

Interesting to hear about his converted Ampex machines - I think I may have used one of them back in my early days of recording.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by ef37a »

"I'd mainly agree with Wonks BUT the big difference with the dual concentric design is that you can work with them much closer than you can with a traditional multi-speaker design. In one temporary setup I had the Berkeleys less than a metre away from me which meant that the proportion of direct to reflected sound was far higher than usual. Many people would find a pair of huge monitors directly in front of them too oppressive but it worked for me."

Very interesting James. Can I ask what amplifiers you were driving them with? (apologies if you have already said!) I am interested because many active monitors get reported as having audible self noise at nearfield distances although I will say the problem seems better than it was a few years ago.

Those Tannoys are noted for their sensitivity and so the amplifiers must have been PD good if noise was not a problem.

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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

At that time I was using a Quad 405-2. It wasn't a treated room but it was reasonably quiet and, while there was a little hiss from the speakers, it wasn't really noticeable. However, the Hypex amp that I now use with them is even quieter - you have to have your ear right up to the speaker to hear anything and that's in a properly soundproof studio.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by RobinC »

RobinC wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:10 pm
jaminem wrote: i have to say that if I was buying now i'd probably be looking at the KH150/KH750 combo.

After more pondering that's the conclusion I've come to. I do use Sonarworks and having spent some time moving my speakers around, measuring then moving them again I think some level of DSP processing is needed in addition to the treatment that I have in the room.

As a follow up to my original post. The KH150s arrived earlier in the week. Very impressed with what the MA1 software does with them. There low end in these is also a step up from my Adams
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

I'm glad the KH150s are going well. Phil Ward also wrote a bit about them on his website as well as the SoS review.

James, which Hypex modules did you use, please?
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by James Perrett »

Nazard wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:51 pm James, which Hypex modules did you use, please?

2 of the UcD180HG and an SMPS400 which I put into a Quad 405 case. Both of my 405's had issues so I took the good parts from each and made one good 405 and used the spare case for the Hypex modules.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

James Perrett wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:30 pm I think I've found it

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-A ... 984-02.pdf

Interesting to hear about his converted Ampex machines - I think I may have used one of them back in my early days of recording.

That’s the one, there’s also another article by Tony in another issue, all about studio maintenance, I’ll dig it out.

James Perrett wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:35 pm At that time I was using a Quad 405-2. It wasn't a treated room but it was reasonably quiet and, while there was a little hiss from the speakers, it wasn't really noticeable. However, the Hypex amp that I now use with them is even quieter - you have to have your ear right up to the speaker to hear anything and that's in a properly soundproof studio.

I’ve been using a 405-2 for a few years now, I can’t say I really like it, it’s a dry, slightly hard clinical sound.
Hypex? I need to investigate something else, at the very least.
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

Many thanks James for the info. Tony, the Hypex range of modules and DIY kits is a route I am planning on taking (I also have a 405). My only question is the possible longevity of SMPSUs......

Bruno Putzey, the designer of UcD, NCore and all round audio genius, was associated closely with Hypex but has set up Purifi Class C, with others and Purifi seems to be state of the art for Class C at present. Which is why I think Hypex have developed the Nilai range. In fact I was in touch with Hypex sales last summer to order the first Nilai kits, but they sold out instantly. Will be quicker off the mark this March....
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

Correction: for Class C, I meant Class D :bouncy:
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by ef37a »

Nazard wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:21 am Correction: for Class C, I meant Class D :bouncy:

AhAAA! You had me going for a moment there! I thought, "has some beardy tweak amp developer found a tiny design twist on established class D techniques and given it a fancy, silly bloody name?"

Now, I don't want to start a cow but a quick shufty at those class D amp's speccs shows me that they are about an order worse for THD than the very best class B* stuff that was designed over a decade ago. I am pleased to see that at least one monitor designer has moved on to 'linear' class G.

*Yes, I do mean "B".

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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Nazard »

I've made a couple of low power, 10-15 watts, Class C, RF power amps, using cheap, but fairly bulletproof IRF510 mosfets. But Class C is clearly unsuitable for audio.

Well, the Hypex Nilai 500DIY (400W into 4ohms), has a THD+N: 0.00015% @ 100W into 4 Ohm / 20 – 20.000 Hz. Fully driven, though, I don't know what the THD is.

The Benchmark AHB2, which I think is one of the lowest distortion amps around, is 0.0003 % THD+N at full rated power, 20 Hz to 20 kHz. (190W into 4ohms).

To be honest, I can't say that the THD figures around nowadays give me any cause for concern. Of the two amps, if price and power output are taken out of the equation, I'd go for the Benchmark. (Even though it has an SMPSU).
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Re: Monitor upgrade from Adam A7X

Post by Arpangel »

That Benchmark looks good, expensive though, I think I’ll, stick with my free 405!
I’m mainly active, but if passive decent monitoring was my main thing, I’d be looking at something, like this.
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