What is Jazz
What is Jazz
Jazz, for me, up to and including Civil Rights era was on the whole to uplift those that were struggling, help them for a little while fly away from their struggles, help people dance and laugh have whale of a time, to find affinity within the music of their struggles :
goodness knows the struggles a particular large section of audience went through in those times.
Nina Simone said after the Civil Rights movement ended, She lost her purpose to make music to sing even.
Jazz after Civil Rights movement ended, from 70s onwards to now doesn't have that connection to those struggles.
Even though some of the Jazz luminaries lived on until recently such as Pharoah Sanders (left earth 2022, September 24).
Jazz from 70s to now branched out into lots of styles : Acid Jazz, Ambient Jazz, Drum n Bass Jazz, Electronica Jazz, Fusion Jazz, HipHop Jazz, Lounge Jazz, Nordic Jazz, Smooth Jazz, Spiritual Jazz, so forth.
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Perhaps this thread will include posts about certain technicalities of certain types of Jazz, appropriate as this is a Theory forum.
Every such is welcome.
Perhaps links to some of our favourite Jazz pieces, albums.
I'm fairly sure there will be quips also welcome because without mirth where would we be.
I'm sure there will be posts of too many notes, too much technicality too much free form lol.
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Were I to make a Jazz album, I never have,
I would have to in my mind link it to struggles people are facing :
some persons on this forum, some person I see in town, some person in my life, some group of people struggling on earth, some struggles untold people on earth go through including us on this forum.
goodness knows the struggles a particular large section of audience went through in those times.
Nina Simone said after the Civil Rights movement ended, She lost her purpose to make music to sing even.
Jazz after Civil Rights movement ended, from 70s onwards to now doesn't have that connection to those struggles.
Even though some of the Jazz luminaries lived on until recently such as Pharoah Sanders (left earth 2022, September 24).
Jazz from 70s to now branched out into lots of styles : Acid Jazz, Ambient Jazz, Drum n Bass Jazz, Electronica Jazz, Fusion Jazz, HipHop Jazz, Lounge Jazz, Nordic Jazz, Smooth Jazz, Spiritual Jazz, so forth.
::
Perhaps this thread will include posts about certain technicalities of certain types of Jazz, appropriate as this is a Theory forum.
Every such is welcome.
Perhaps links to some of our favourite Jazz pieces, albums.
I'm fairly sure there will be quips also welcome because without mirth where would we be.
I'm sure there will be posts of too many notes, too much technicality too much free form lol.
::
Were I to make a Jazz album, I never have,
I would have to in my mind link it to struggles people are facing :
some persons on this forum, some person I see in town, some person in my life, some group of people struggling on earth, some struggles untold people on earth go through including us on this forum.
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- tea for two
Frequent Poster - Posts: 3663 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am
Re: What is Jazz
Trying to define a musical genre is a difficult thing. People who know jazz generally recognise it when they hear it - but it's not done through an intellectual decision process so I think it's impossible to articulate how.
Re: What is Jazz
It's a dialect.
My Jazz collection is mostly sourced second hand where I can take a chance on something I know nothing about and also pick up "the Greats" from the donated collections of deceased others.
I tend to go through phases, then incorporate the experiences into my internal reference bank, sometimes never returning to the material.
Past phases:
Ella
Django
Hugh Masekela
Satchmo
Oscar P
Basie
Various unknown sidemen
I've observed that, like anything slightly non-white is often considered Black, anything with a "hint of the exotic" is rendered "Jazz" by dint of it's deviation rather than any intrinsic qualities, partly because Jazz in it's original form(s) was so disruptive of the Natural Order of Things that anything subsequently perceived as disruptive can be described as Jazz.
My Jazz collection is mostly sourced second hand where I can take a chance on something I know nothing about and also pick up "the Greats" from the donated collections of deceased others.
I tend to go through phases, then incorporate the experiences into my internal reference bank, sometimes never returning to the material.
Past phases:
Ella
Django
Hugh Masekela
Satchmo
Oscar P
Basie
Various unknown sidemen
I've observed that, like anything slightly non-white is often considered Black, anything with a "hint of the exotic" is rendered "Jazz" by dint of it's deviation rather than any intrinsic qualities, partly because Jazz in it's original form(s) was so disruptive of the Natural Order of Things that anything subsequently perceived as disruptive can be described as Jazz.
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: What is Jazz
I'm fairly sure there will be quips also welcome because without mirth where would we be.
Well I couldn’t resist, below are two links to the Fast Show, the first is just one of the sketches in the compilation that the second link refers to, it neatly sums up my definition of Jazz.
The best definition of Jazz I’ve come across is ‘A race to the finish in any key you fancy’.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MsQYzpOHpik
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: What is Jazz
And many thousands of jazz ballads too!
One thing that is quite distinctive about a lot of modern jazz is the use of certain chords that are rarely heard in other types of music - particularly 7#9 chords and their derivatives. But that’s no more watertight than any other definition. Pink Floyd use a 7#9 chord in Breathe - Rick Wright admitted he nicked it from Miles Davis.
Re: What is Jazz
RichardT wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:17 pm
And many thousands of jazz ballads too!
One thing that is quite distinctive about a lot of modern jazz is the use of certain chords that are rarely heard in other types of music - particularly 7#9 chords and their derivatives. But that’s no more watertight than any other definition. Pink Floyd use a 7#9 chord in Breathe - Rick Wright admitted he nicked it from Miles Davis.
".....rarely heard in other types of music - particularly 7#9 chords and their derivatives........" Not really, from Debussy (and others) to Stock Aitken and Waterman litter their music with said chords.
Re: What is Jazz
'Litter' seems an exaggeration. Clair De Lune, does that have a 7#9? Bringing it to mind, I don't think so. Thinking of a Stock, Aitken, Waterman track, I Should Be So Lucky -- that's triads all the way.
A 7#9 is often used as a V chord in a minor key. It sounds more modern than a 7b9, which is also used as a V chord in a minor key, but sounds more old time. Jazzy pop songs have 7#9s and it's the distinctive chord in Purple Haze.
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: What is Jazz
OneWorld wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:43 pmRichardT wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:17 pm
And many thousands of jazz ballads too!
One thing that is quite distinctive about a lot of modern jazz is the use of certain chords that are rarely heard in other types of music - particularly 7#9 chords and their derivatives. But that’s no more watertight than any other definition. Pink Floyd use a 7#9 chord in Breathe - Rick Wright admitted he nicked it from Miles Davis.
".....rarely heard in other types of music - particularly 7#9 chords and their derivatives........" Not really, from Debussy (and others) to Stock Aitken and Waterman litter their music with said chords.
No, I disagree, they really aren't that common in pop and classical music. Debussy and Ravel are the most likely candidates, I agree.
Do you have any examples from Stock Aitken and Waterman?
Re: What is Jazz
merlyn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:59 pm
'Litter' seems an exaggeration. Clair De Lune, does that have a 7#9? Bringing it to mind, I don't think so. Thinking of a Stock, Aitken, Waterman track, I Should Be So Lucky -- that's triads all the way.
A 7#9 is often used as a V chord in a minor key. It sounds more modern than a 7b9, which is also used as a V chord in a minor key, but sounds more old time. Jazzy pop songs have 7#9s and it's the distinctive chord in Purple Haze.
Ok the use of the word littered was artistic licence on my part, but music is art anyway, in a song someone might sing “I would die for you” that doesn’t mean they are going to book a slot at Dignitas. My point was of course a general one, that being that music and all that jazz is ambiguous not prescriptive, except say Bach for example might have done a fugue or two, as part of an exercise, but to sort of labour under the illusion that music is cat in stone and one would never happen across 7#9 in anything but jazz, well, not the music I listen to, there again I am musically promiscuous and have come across all sorts of anomalies and that’s what makes music so enjoyable, the surprises
Re: What is Jazz
- Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado - Posts: 20078 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
People often mistake me for a grown-up because of my age.
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- shufflebeat
Longtime Poster - Posts: 9170 Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:00 am Location: Manchester, UK
“…I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career” - (folk musician, Manchester).
Re: What is Jazz
So does he, well depending on where he is, he might well be in jazz heaven and lovin' it
Re: What is Jazz
I like one of the comments made on that vid.....
@maureenc1284
8 days ago (edited)
JAZZ - the new axe throwing for the TikTok crowd.
LOL
Re: What is Jazz
Having a 7#9 in itself is not enough to make music jazz. Purple Haze is based on a 7#9, but it's not jazz. You could say that's partly because it doesn't resolve. A typical jazz progression using a 7#9 is
| Bm7b5 / E7#9 / | Am7 / / / |
You could then think that jazz involves chord progressions, but that's not always the case. Kind Of Blue has tunes like So What where there are long passages of one chord.
| Bm7b5 / E7#9 / | Am7 / / / |
You could then think that jazz involves chord progressions, but that's not always the case. Kind Of Blue has tunes like So What where there are long passages of one chord.
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: What is Jazz
merlyn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:58 pm Having a 7#9 in itself is not enough to make music jazz. Purple Haze is based on a 7#9, but it's not jazz. You could say that's partly because it doesn't resolve. A typical jazz progression using a 7#9 is
| Bm7b5 / E7#9 / | Am7 / / / |
You could then think that jazz involves chord progressions, but that's not always the case. Kind Of Blue has tunes like So What where there are long passages of one chord.
That's very true!
Re: What is Jazz
merlyn wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:58 pm Having a 7#9 in itself is not enough to make music jazz. Purple Haze is based on a 7#9, but it's not jazz. You could say that's partly because it doesn't resolve. A typical jazz progression using a 7#9 is
| Bm7b5 / E7#9 / | Am7 / / / |
You could then think that jazz involves chord progressions, but that's not always the case. Kind Of Blue has tunes like So What where there are long passages of one chord.
I agree harmony alone can't be the defining characteristic though it is an important one. I would suggest rhythm is a more defining characteristic - especially thinking back to the origins of jazz.
One of the earliest manifestations of jazz was Ragtime. If you remove the syncopations from say Scott Joplin's The Entertainer it sounds not unlike popular music of classical derivation like Sousa's marches.
Conversely, add some syncopation to The Liberty Bell (Monty Python theme music) and you arrive more or less at Ragtime. We still use the phrase "to jazz it up".
As Richard T states above, we know it when we hear it - usually.
Re: What is Jazz
Seems to me Jazz is actually a bunch of genres over times.
Perhaps the thing that links it all together is the approach of the players?
To me it feels like the common thread is a kind of "I will play this because I believe in it, I believe it's worthwhile, I love it and I'm playing it for me, if you like it too that's nice, but I will not dumb it down for you"
Perhaps the thing that links it all together is the approach of the players?
To me it feels like the common thread is a kind of "I will play this because I believe in it, I believe it's worthwhile, I love it and I'm playing it for me, if you like it too that's nice, but I will not dumb it down for you"
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- Random Guitarist
Frequent Poster - Posts: 1039 Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:00 am Location: West Sussex UK
I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.
Re: What is Jazz
What about Western Swing?
- Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado - Posts: 20078 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
People often mistake me for a grown-up because of my age.
Re: What is Jazz
This bloke, in defining western swing........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLVJenO26Js
Said western swing is hard to define, it is many things, but there is definitely one thing that what western thing isn't, and that's country?
I like west swing though......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVT5saGp1Wc
Important thing is, I played guitar along with it, and the eSsential 7#9 chord fits!
Re: What is Jazz
They could be equally important. Jazz educator Mike Longo said :
Jazz is the marriage of African rhythm and European harmony.
The cyclic form is also important, which may be the influence of Scottish and Irish folk music. And, of course, improvisation. I think a lot of people don't get jazz because they hear the solos as random. They don't hear the form -- the tune -- going underneath the solos.
One thing jazz is is the only American art form.
Ragtime isn't jazz as such to me, as there is no improvisation.
I see what you're saying, that syncopation is important, but de-syncopate The Entertainer and there isn't much left. Here is the first phrase of The Entertainer, with the syncopation marked :
Now, take that out :
Pretty lame, don't you think?
The phrases in Liberty Bell end on downbeats, and there is not a lot of room to shuffle notes around.
Those with delicate sensibilities look away now. The fact is Scott Joplin, being black, was coming more from the black tradition, and Sousa, being white, was coming more from the white tradition.
It ain't what you don't know. It's what you know that ain't so.
Re: What is Jazz
Yes and that is more or less my point. I was trying to suggest that jazz is characterised by syncopated rhythms more so than the harmony or melodies. Without the syncopations we have a 'lame' parlour piece of more or less classical origin.
Put that Sousa march into a 4/4 beat with swing and that can easily be jazz. Sorry I don't have the technology on hand to show.
Well done for going to the trouble of demonstrating this in detail by the way!
And yes, I know ragtime isn't truly jazz, but it probably marks the point at which jazz separated from the mainstream at that time.