Really?????
Listen to the following, the full 11:00 minutes, and by the way, if this isn't jazz then what is it.
Gato Barbieri
Intro/Cancion/Tango (00:00 - 11:13) from the album The Third World (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5XcEi8cvc
GilesAnt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:31 pm
I haven't said that isn't jazz - I'm not quite sure what specific point you are alluding to.
My remarks on suggesting that rhythm was perhaps the supreme defining characteristic of jazz were placed in a context of early jazz because we can get some glimpses there into how it emerged from earlier genres and forms.
Modern jazz is much more free of course.
GilesAnt wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:15 pm
We were discussing some of the most important musical elements that distinguish jazz. By looking at the origins of jazz it is easier to see what these elements might be. Obviously things are so diverse nowadays that the picture will be more obscured.
Jazz is about other things too of course, but we just happened to be talking about these aspects.
ManFromGlass wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:28 pm
The question is good - the answer(s)? well good luck.
For me the tune has to swing. It’s as simple as that. Swing in the way that jazz would define the word. And there is the rabbit hole.
After many years I am still trying to decide if the James Bond theme actually breaks into jazz for a few bars. That section sort of swings but in a rather straight way. The ride cymbal pattern doesn’t quite make it into the land of swing for me. I love the tune but will always be on the fence about if it swings the way jazz does.
And now a lot of the younger jazzers are taking pop, rock and other tunes and interpreting them. Steely Dan? Joni Mitchell? Some of the arrangements blow my mind.
ManFromGlass wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:28 pm
The question is good - the answer(s)? well good luck.
For me the tune has to swing.
tea for two wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am goodness knows the struggles a particular large section of audience went through in those times.
tea for two wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am Jazz, for me, up to and including Civil Rights era was on the whole to uplift those that were struggling, help them for a little while fly away from their struggles, help people dance and laugh have whale of a time, to find affinity within the music of their struggles :
goodness knows the struggles a particular large section of audience went through in those times.
Nina Simone said after the Civil Rights movement ended, She lost her purpose to make music to sing even.
Jazz after Civil Rights movement ended, from 70s onwards to now doesn't have that connection to those struggles.
tea for two wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am Perhaps this thread will include posts about certain technicalities of certain types of Jazz, appropriate as this is a Theory forum.
Every such is welcome.
Jazz is about freedom within discipline. Usually a dictatorship like in Russia and Germany will prevent jazz from being played because it just seemed to represent freedom, democracy and the United States.
RichardT wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:31 pm Actually I think jazz is as much or more about discipline than freedom - the great players have gone through the tough discipline of learning how to improvise which takes enormous work to master. Without the discipline they wouldn't be able to express themselves freely. The freedom is almost a by-product of the discipline.
Dave Brubeck said:Jazz is about freedom within discipline. Usually a dictatorship like in Russia and Germany will prevent jazz from being played because it just seemed to represent freedom, democracy and the United States.
RichardT wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:31 pm Actually I think jazz is as much or more about discipline than freedom - the great players have gone through the tough discipline of learning how to improvise which takes enormous work to master. Without the discipline they wouldn't be able to express themselves freely. The freedom is almost a by-product of the discipline.
Dave Brubeck said:Jazz is about freedom within discipline. Usually a dictatorship like in Russia and Germany will prevent jazz from being played because it just seemed to represent freedom, democracy and the United States.
GilesAnt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:27 amRichardT wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:31 pm Actually I think jazz is as much or more about discipline than freedom - the great players have gone through the tough discipline of learning how to improvise which takes enormous work to master. Without the discipline they wouldn't be able to express themselves freely. The freedom is almost a by-product of the discipline.
Dave Brubeck said:Jazz is about freedom within discipline. Usually a dictatorship like in Russia and Germany will prevent jazz from being played because it just seemed to represent freedom, democracy and the United States.
Anyone who tries to play jazz will see the truth of this. It's easy to say 'just improvise', but it takes a lot of technical skill and musical ability to actually do it.
OneWorld wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:32 am
"I'm glad you are the fool that got it lol." Seems like I am in good company then!
tea for two wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:30 pm Yes !
Freedom.
::
Freedom from Slavery.
Slavery can take many forms as we are aware.
tea for two wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am goodness knows the struggles a particular large section of audience went through in those times.
Nina Simone said after the Civil Rights movement ended, She lost her purpose to make music to sing even.
tea for two wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:07 am Were I to make a Jazz album, I never have,
I would have to in my mind link it to struggles people are facing :
some persons on this forum, some person I see in town, some person in my life, some group of people struggling on earth, some struggles untold people on earth go through including us on this forum.
tea for two wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:24 am
Jazz is emancipation from slavery from struggles.
This is the whole reason I made this thread.
It is understandable we (us on SoS, various musicians audiences worldwide) are so far from that era we never experienced the struggles,
easy for us to see Jazz as just a music, creativity, technical ability.
When the essence of Jazz is emancipation.
Emancipation from slavery from struggles.
RichardT wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:07 am @Oneworld - I’m not saying freedom and discipline are mutually exclusive - I think true freedom as an improviser comes when the player has internalised the changes, the scales and the musical ideas.
As Charlie Parker said - ‘learn the changes, then forget them’
I think what he meant is exactly what I’m saying - discipline first, and then freedom.
I agree with you about the second part of Dave Brubeck’s quote!
GilesAnt wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:04 amtea for two wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:24 am
Jazz is emancipation from slavery from struggles.
This is the whole reason I made this thread.
It is understandable we (us on SoS, various musicians audiences worldwide) are so far from that era we never experienced the struggles,
easy for us to see Jazz as just a music, creativity, technical ability.
When the essence of Jazz is emancipation.
Emancipation from slavery from struggles.
Well since this is a music composition/theory forum you can see why some of us might be talking about the musical elements of jazz.
In any case I'm not sure Jazz is emancipation/freedom etc. The jazz genre emerged quite some time after US emancipation in any case. The composers of the Classical era possibly thought they were discovering freedom as they broke away from the earlier Baroque styles. European folk music was a kind of freedom too - the freedom to make secular rather than sacred music.
But even if the essence of jazz is emancipation, that doesn't really help to answer the question of 'what is jazz', any more than saying 'just feel it'.
Arpangel wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:11 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-z4d0VAXmw
And I can’t play properly at all, until I’ve got a Zawinul hat.