Roland TR-606 hum when LEDs are on ...

[tenga]

Hi eveyone !

i got a roland tr606a while ago it lights up and make sound on batteries but i have some issues when i use a power supply.

-when powered on Roland dc adapter it makes a buzz noise when the leds are on.
-ive tried other dc adaptors , but they work fine on my 303 !!
-the more leds are lit stronger the noise.
-the noise is louder on the headphone output than on the line out
-the noise is louder when the volume pot is close to zero and decreases when up.

what ive tried so far:
-replaced electrolitic caps on the power supply c104 c105 c101 c100
-unmounted vr8 and cleaned it.
-replaced q42 & q4
-replaced q403 q404 q405 q406 q407 q408 q409 q410 a411 q412.
( i suspected the noise came from led/buttons matrix)

i found the noise sometimes temporally go away when moving q100 & q101

im pretty desperate , anyone has any idea what can be wrong ??
i have scope , signal generator , multimeter and all needed to solder/unsolder.
best regards
chriss

[James Perrett]

Try hooking up the scope to the internal power supply tracks and checking to see whether you see ripple when the LEDs are on. Are you using the correct power supply?

[tenga]

Hi James:

thanks for your anwswer !!! i realy appreciate it !!

yes im using the right power supply: original boss 9v dv , works perfect with sh101, tb303 and mc202.

ive done some scope on the power supply , yes there is high frequency ripple
and the amplitude changes depending on the location.

its present even in very early stages of the power supply.
should i do it on ac or dc mode?

[Folderol]

Is the hum actually 50Hz, or does it sound more like 100Hz. It should be 100Hz, otherwise it may be the mains transformer has an open circuit secondary winding which will sag more under load, as well as having a higher ripple.

Alternatively it could be something in the unit drawing more power than it should and dragging the supply down.

Do you have the correct PSU. I believe that the correct current rating is quite critical.

[ef37a]

IMHO the first thing to check is the open circuit output voltage of the supply.
The filter caps might be fine but the regulator, assuming it has one, might be faulty and the series control transistor has 'punched thru' and is letting raw, unregulated current through. This will have a lot of load dependent ripple on it and be 12 or even more volts and that could cause damage.

We know the supply should deliver 9V but what is the current rating? A modern switch mode PSU rated at 9V and two amps say will not be expensive, why faff about with the old one?

There is are possible problems with a new, generic supply.
1) The co-ax connector might not match.
2) The polarity might be wrong. Many 9V supplies are intended for guitar pedals which are historically and annoyingly silly centre negative.

Solution? Chop the original plug off and splice it to the new PSU. Bit O heat shrink taking great care to get the polarity correct!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Multibao-2000m ... 8963&psc=1 e.g.

Dave.

[tenga]

Thanks for your reply Folderol !!
greetings from France !!

>>Is the hum actually 50Hz, or does it sound more like 100Hz
to be honest i didnt check the frequency , but i can check tonight.

>>Alternatively it could be something in the unit drawing more power than it should and dragging the supply down.

this do make sense... the noise only come up when the leds are on.
the more leds are on , the louder the noise.
when a led blink so does the noise.

this is why i checked the led matrix so much and changed the transistors on it.. unfortunatelly no luck so far... but i agree something might be drawing abnormal power , i just dont know what it is....

i could run a spray frezze or isopropilic alcohol test to find the hot zone.

>>Do you have the correct PSU. I believe that the correct current rating is quite critical.

i will post my current model number tonight.

[tenga]

Hi there:

i found the model of my Power supply in the order from a few years back.

i am using a Boss PSA 230S power supply, these are the specs :
9 V DC
500 mA
Negative polarity inside
Inside: 2.1 mm
Outside: 5.5 mm

note from manual: Suitable for all BOSS Compact and Twin pedals with a 5.5 x 2.1 mm hollow plug socket, negative polarity inside, ME-50/-20/-20B multi-effects, the DB-66/-88/-90 metronomes, DR series drum machines, FC series foot switches, MC-202, SH-101, SP-202, TR-626 and all TU series tuners.

do you think its suitable ?

bets regards
chriss

[Folderol]

Check that there is 6V from Q42 emitter to the +6V point. i.e. across C105.
Also, the external PSU must NOT carry an earth through as that would either short out the voltage regulator, or destroy Q41, and could cause all sorts of problems as it could possibly overvolt everything!

[Wonks]

The TR606 is designed to use the Boss ACA adapter, which could be some of the reason for your issues. This is an unregulated 12V DC PSU and the TR606 drops the voltage internally to 9v.

With a 9v supply, the voltage might be too low.

Have you tried it with batteries? That removes any PSU issues.

[tenga]

>>Have you tried it with batteries?
yes , with batteries it works good.
what you say makes sense...

i fond more info about the difference between ACA and PSA adators:
its in french thought.
i was not aware the power supplys were so different !!!

https://fais-tes-effets-guitare.com/boss-aca-vs-psa/

[Wonks]

Yes, they are quite different!

[tenga]

the thing tha puzzels me it why does it works good on the 303 ?? and has issues on the 606 ??

Folderol might be right , something might be drawing abnormal power on the 606..

i can measure the current on both units to compare, thats a good idea.

i bought an original boss aca-240 just now to test

[Wonks]

If it works OK with batteries, then it can't be a real problem with the TR606 and I'd imagine is down to not getting enough voltage due to the difference in PSUs.

The internal circuitry dealing with the PSU input is in the middle at the top of the circuitry of page 5 of the service manual (input shown at grid position B17).

https://www.synthxl.com/wp-content/uplo ... -notes.pdf

I don't know enough to interpret it, but someone might be able to say whether you're likely to get the full +6v,+15v and +5v with just a 9v DC input. Comments elsewhere on the ACA adaptor indicate that you're likely to get nearer 6v internally than 9v on a lot of Boss pedals.

The current draw of the TR 606 is between 70mA and 150mA depending on how many instruments are outputting at once and the volume setting.

[nathanscribe]

OK so just to clarify on the PSU requirements for the TR-606: the original Boss/Roland ACA supply was indeed an unregulated model which is mentioned in the 606 Owner's Manual. There was a later wall wart, the PSA240. This is a regulated 9V 200ma supply.

Having had my 606 for nearly 30 years, I can confirm that the LED noise you hear is to some extent one of the 'quirks' of the 606, and indeed the 303, as I had a very noisy one of those back in the day as well.

However, it is very dependent on a good supply. My 606 sounds terrible and noisy with one of those cheap generic supplies, but is perfectly fine with the official Boss PSA240. This btw is the older linear model, not the more recent switching supply version.

It also works well from a Strymon Ojai. It's very noisy from my old Maplin no-name multi-out supply.

Before scattergunning any more parts without knowing what's wrong, try a good reputable power supply.

I would hazard a guess that if its performance with batteries is clean but with a PSU it is not, there may be a grounding issue caused or exacerbated by that other PSU while your 606 is connected to other bits of gear via audio/trigs/sync.

[James Perrett]

I don't know enough to interpret it, but someone might be able to say whether you're likely to get the full +6v,+15v and +5v with just a 9v DC input. Comments elsewhere on the ACA adaptor indicate that you're likely to get nearer 6v internally than 9v on a lot of Boss pedals.

As far as I can see the power supply is regulated down to 6V which also comes direct from the battery supply. This supply is fed through a couple of diodes to give 4.8V (what Roland call 5V) and also through a switch mode circuit to give 15V. Since batteries can go below 1V per cell before they are totally exhausted, the 6V supply could easily go below 4V which would take the 5V supply down to 3.8V. I've no idea whether the TR606 will work down to those voltages but it will almost certainly work below the nominal voltages.

[tenga]

Check that there is 6V from Q42 emitter to the +6V point. i.e. across C105.
Also, the external PSU must NOT carry an earth through as that would either short out the voltage regulator, or destroy Q41, and could cause all sorts of problems as it could possibly overvolt everything!

hi Foderol and other readers.
this is what i measured.

voltage across c105 : volmeter dc 5.81v
c100 :dc 15.16v
c9 : 5.47v

i retested on batteries : the noise is also present but volume is quite smaller than with power supply.

the frequency is betwen 130 khz & 360 khz : its not a sinwave..
headphone out width vol at min


line out vol at min


this is a scope at d38 anode at the power supply.
this is the signal i hear when the led blinks....


this a redrawn version of the power supply schematic for reference


the 15v and 6v has a quite a bit of ripple : 160 mv and 80 mv respectivelly.

any hints are welcome!!

[Folderol]

Yes. That's switching spikes, so is almost certainly a voltage issue. Higher voltage input is doing something odd. Anything getting hot round there?
That voltage ratio of the spikes between them is reasonable.
C105 is a definite suspect. If it's drying out things could get pretty funky. Ideally it wants to be a high temperature low ESR type.

[tenga]

i did some testing yesterday and changed C105 and C104: no improvement.
i tried a lab power supply at 9V & 12V no improvement.
i removed D38 & D39: to check if the signal was sneaking this way: NO

probing:
actually i can see big pulses all over the place of about 100mv everyere before C105.... this means my +6V is noisy from the start.
The pulses are a bit attenuated on the +15v after the transformer.

since my +6v is noisy it sneaks into the headphone out , this is why i hear it louder on this part and a little less on the lin out wich is fed from +15v

i dont know if there is a faulty part on the power supply or if its an issue somewhere on the 6V part of the chip.

i also know the pulses are related to the Led scanning.

i'am currently looking for a thermal camera or freze spray to locate a faulty component.

any hints/suggestions are very much welcome !!
best regards
Chriss

[tenga]

Hi guys !!

any ideas based on last observation notes anyone?
i tried cold spray without any luck.
im hope i can try a heat cam soon too.

i also thought it can be one of the pushbutton that is damaged.
what do you think ?

best regards
Chriss

[Folderol]

I'm wondering if it may be something daft like a hairline fracture in a board track. Time to get the magnifying glass out. Also check for bad solder joints - especially on the bigger components.

[tenga]

I'm wondering if it may be something daft like a hairline fracture in a board track. Time to get the magnifying glass out. Also check for bad solder joints - especially on the bigger components.

this is what Daniel Araya suggested: look for hairline cracks in the pcb.
i tried with a usb microscope device but it was quite clunky...

in the meantime i tried a frezze spray without much luck: didnt see any particular hotpoint ,but i didnt had much time to look , the spray was empty in jus 1 or 2 minutes..... strange...

i also tried isopropilic alcohol to pin point any hotspot , but it melted the vernish.. so i had to stop doing it...

im pretty desperate... i will try a magnifing glass.... its quite likely to be a crack on the pcb... if you have any hints on this topic i would apreciate it

best regards
chriss

[Hugh Robjohns]

Going back to basics...

In post 1 you implied it worked perfectly when powered by batteries.

Is that really the case?

It is highly significant if so.

[jjlonbass]

voltage across c105 : volmeter dc 5.81v

This looks a bit lower than I'd expect. What DC voltages do you measure across

1. D40 (or C103, they should be the same thing)
2. R235
3. R236 (R2 in your diagram)

You say that you replaced Q42, what type of transistor did you replace it with?
Did you replace Q41? If so, with which type?

John

[tenga]

hi john!!

thanks for your reply!!!

this is what i got.

D40 (or C103, they should be the same thing): 6.507v
R235:1.980v
R236 (R2 in your diagram):3.23v

the replacements i used for q41 &q42
q42 BD242B
q41 KSA916YTA

today i looked the board with a thermal camera.
the area near q414 is a little hot.
c12 was hot also , but i removed and noise was persistent.
q42 is hot , i suppose is normal.
the are below the tempo pot is hot also.

thanks for the help once again.
chriss

[tenga]

i finaly figured out by removing the coupling caps before the headphone and line stage that the noise is injected by the 15V lines on this last stages.

i found that there is a dispatcher of the 15V lines to the diferent parts of the circuirt.

this way i can turn off progresively all the 15V parts of the circuits , and somehow isolate the zone with the issue.



also , when i touch or move around C81 , the noise is reduced quite a lot.
i replaced this capacitor , without any improvement.

any ideas.?

[Folderol]

All those caps are shown going to a common ground point. Are they physically like that, or is it just a drawing convenience?

[steinboy]

I have the same issue. did you ever figure out the cause. I'm trying to revive an old TR606 that has had some repairs and mods.

[Adam Inglis]

OK so just to clarify on the PSU requirements for the TR-606: the original Boss/Roland ACA supply was indeed an unregulated model which is mentioned in the 606 Owner's Manual. There was a later wall wart, the PSA240. This is a regulated 9V 200ma supply.

Having had my 606 for nearly 30 years, I can confirm that the LED noise you hear is to some extent one of the 'quirks' of the 606, and indeed the 303, as I had a very noisy one of those back in the day as well.

However, it is very dependent on a good supply. My 606 sounds terrible and noisy with one of those cheap generic supplies, but is perfectly fine with the official Boss PSA240. This btw is the older linear model, not the more recent switching supply version.

It also works well from a Strymon Ojai. It's very noisy from my old Maplin no-name multi-out supply.

Before scattergunning any more parts without knowing what's wrong, try a good reputable power supply.

I would hazard a guess that if its performance with batteries is clean but with a PSU it is not, there may be a grounding issue caused or exacerbated by that other PSU while your 606 is connected to other bits of gear via audio/trigs/sync.

Having owned a TR-606 since new (1982?) I'll just second what Nathanscribe says above....

[zenguitar]

And it is worth pointing out that nathanscribe does know what he's talking about.

Andy

[steinboy]

it seems this noise is directly proportional to the LED current. connecting to an adjustable lab supply I noticed the noise occurring only while LEDs lit. I had modified the 606 with different color LEDs in a repeating pattern of 4. blue,red,amber,green and each color gave a different level of noise. when I reduced the voltage the noise disappeared on the blue one which draws less current. reducing further almost all noise disappeared. The 606 seems to have a poorly regulated voltage supply circuit. The primary supply is 6 volts which feeds a step-up circuit for the audio 15 volts, but any disturbance on the 6 volt line will feed through to the 15. With the battery connected the main voltage is less than 6 volts because of the drop by Q41. when external supply is connected, the negative side goes through Q42 which gets regulated by D40 to supposedly give 6 volts but i get closer to 7, so significantly higher than with batteries. this extra voltage translates to extra current drawn by the LEDS which may modulate the 6 volt line. A quick work-around could be just to use regulated 6 volt supply instead of unregulated 9v. Since the digital circuits are all low power CMOS it works down to 3.3volts. With my bench supply at 5 volts it worked fine and noise was greatly reduced. i'm also thinking to replace the LEDS with low current versions or add separate voltage regulators to feed the 15 volt section and the LED/Switch board. Maybe add extra filter capacitor across c403 on Switch Board.