Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Discuss the hardware/software tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio or on location.

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

ef37a wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:52 am
And finally: "One Swallow does not a summer make"!

Dave.

Dave, I gave up after a few more gulps, namely ATC's and Geithain's, both great speakers, but not meant for my place.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by ef37a »

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:57 am Hey, don't knock it! It's not often Arpy's random tales make any sense, but that one is spot on! :D:lol:

In his room. In this specific instance and in HIS opinion!

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16913 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by philb »

Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:20 am So I stand by my point, if untreated then yes, get some "reasonable" monitors, they don’t have to be crap, but please, there’s no point in spending thousands, it just won’t be worth it.

Agree totally, although there's two options. Let's say buy some at 1.500 now, put 500 in basic treatment. Then treat room step by step, and monitors are sounding better with every step more in treatment.

Option B: Buy monitors for 500 (obviously worse sound capabilities), other 1500 in treatment. Then wanting to use more of the potential by treatment, trying to sell these 500 ones for 300, having a loss of 200 and still not the money to buy the 1.500 ones.

Difficult :bouncy::D

And agaoim, I totally agree that treatment is fundamental in any case, as said, already in contact with GIK; they have a sketch of my room now, and waiting for some further response 8-)
philb
New here
Posts: 10 Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 1:44 pm

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

My theories about treating rooms related to monitors goes out the window completely when it comes to the barmy world of hi-fi, how many hi-fi people have I witnessed who have massive high end speakers in regular domestic living rooms, I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan? The amount of gear he had in there could have amounted to the deposit on a nice semi.

:roll:
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by RichardT »

Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:03 pm My theories about treating rooms related to monitors goes out the window completely when it comes to the barmy world of hi-fi, how many hi-fi people have I witnessed who have massive high end speakers in regular domestic living rooms, I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan? The amount of gear he had in there could have amounted to the deposit on a nice semi.

:roll:

Wow, two ELS63s would have taken up a significant chunk of his space.
RichardT
Frequent Poster
Posts: 4392 Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 am Location: Ireland

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by muzines »

Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:03 pm I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan?

Crazy! Probably would have been easily solved by connecting his caravan power source using those $10,000 gold-plated connections...
User avatar
muzines
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12286 Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 am
..............................mu:zines | music magazine archive | difficultAudio  | Legacy Logic Project Conversion

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

RichardT wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:07 pm
Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:03 pm My theories about treating rooms related to monitors goes out the window completely when it comes to the barmy world of hi-fi, how many hi-fi people have I witnessed who have massive high end speakers in regular domestic living rooms, I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan? The amount of gear he had in there could have amounted to the deposit on a nice semi.

:roll:

Wow, two ELS63s would have taken up a significant chunk of his space.

Yes, there wasn’t room for two people! :D
I had trouble getting them to sound good in my big room, they were amazing, but you have to give them room to breath.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

muzines wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:08 pm Crazy! Probably would have been easily solved by connecting his caravan power source using those $10,000 gold-plated connections...

They are very sensitive to damp, they hiss loudly if they get damp.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by James Perrett »

Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:03 pm I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan?

I've heard them in a similar sized empty room. There were real issues with the sound but the owner was completely happy with them.

I've found that my Tannoy dual concentrics work well in poor rooms because the dual concentric driver allows you to work very close to them without the stereo image breaking down. This minimises the contribution of the room - a bit like a pair of giant headphones. However, they are even better in a properly treated room.

And to go back to the previous debate - I've actually heard the sound of NS10s improve in a room with poor acoustics. We used to use them on top of the cupboards in our fairly large and echoey kitchen where they lost much of their harshness and even seemed to have some bass.
User avatar
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 14570 Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:00 am Location: The wilds of Hampshire
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration. JRP Music Facebook Page

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

James Perrett wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:24 pm I've heard them in a similar sized empty room. There were real issues with the sound but the owner was completely happy with them.

The ESLs radiation pattern is fig-8, so you get a lot of HF bouncing off the back walls that you wouldn't get with more conventional speakers

I've actually heard the sound of NS10s improve in a room with poor acoustics. We used to use them on top of the cupboards in our fairly large and echoey kitchen where they lost much of their harshness and even seemed to have some bass.

Two boundary layers to lift the low end, and well off-axis to the tweeter... works for me! :-D
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 39540 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

James Perrett wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:24 pm
Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:03 pm I sold a pair of Quad ESL63’s to a guy who turned out to be living in a caravan, he wanted his money back as they didn’t sound how he thought they would, what? in an 8X8 caravan?

I've heard them in a similar sized empty room. There were real issues with the sound but the owner was completely happy with them.

I've found that my Tannoy dual concentrics work well in poor rooms because the dual concentric driver allows you to work very close to them without the stereo image breaking down. This minimises the contribution of the room - a bit like a pair of giant headphones. However, they are even better in a properly treated room.

And to go back to the previous debate - I've actually heard the sound of NS10s improve in a room with poor acoustics. We used to use them on top of the cupboards in our fairly large and echoey kitchen where they lost much of their harshness and even seemed to have some bass.

I’ve always found infinite baffle speakers worked well in my room, things like NS10’s, they sounded tighter and more controlled.
I’ve really got to get rid of these Berry’s, but I’m stumped as to what to replace them with, I’d like sealed boxes, but they tend to be expensive.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by MarkOne »

Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:26 pm
I’ve always found infinite baffle speakers worked well in my room, things like NS10’s, they sounded tighter and more controlled.
I’ve really got to get rid of these Berry’s, but I’m stumped as to what to replace them with, I’d like sealed boxes, but they tend to be expensive.

Acoustic Energy AE22s still come up on eBay occasionally

Lots of people around these parts really liked them back in the day
MarkOne
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2811 Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:00 am Location: Bristol, England, Earth, Perseus Gap, Milky Way
My Music on Apple Music
My Music on Spotify

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by tea for two »

When I checked out Audeze EL8 Planar open backed headphones reviewed by Sam https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/audeze-lcd-x-el8
it was clear to me EL8 are more Hifi headphones.
EL8 sound impressive clear yet not as accurate as my K712 which I had at hand to compare.
Accuracy is more important to me.
Yet if going for a Hifi sound I can understand someone purchasing EL8 mixing mastering to it.

Similarly in an Untreated room I can understand a person getting some decent Hifi speakers that sounds impressive clear in this untreated room, mixing mastering to these Hifi speakers with reference to some commercially released music played on same Hifi speakers.

Also how many hours did we spend in our yooooff laying on the floor speakers on the floor listening to records, tapes.
This is how I mix my own music nowadays.
tea for two
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3651 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Aled Hughes »

MarkOne wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:39 pm
Arpangel wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:26 pm
I’ve always found infinite baffle speakers worked well in my room, things like NS10’s, they sounded tighter and more controlled.
I’ve really got to get rid of these Berry’s, but I’m stumped as to what to replace them with, I’d like sealed boxes, but they tend to be expensive.

Acoustic Energy AE22s still come up on eBay occasionally

Lots of people around these parts really liked them back in the day

This is what I’d recommend in a heartbeat if you’re looking for a great sealed box stereo pair. They’re not exactly small, but it’s a wonderful speaker.

I’ve just sold my pair to The Elf since I’m going for multiple smaller speakers for Atmos etc., but I don’t believe I’ll be hearing a sonic upgrade over the AE22!
Aled Hughes
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1817 Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:00 am Location: Pwllheli, Cymru

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

I almost bought a pair of AE22’s when they came out, I liked them a lot, I wish I had.
They are rare secondhand now, if anyone knows of any I’d be grateful.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Essex Boi »

Arpangel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:52 am I almost bought a pair of AE22’s when they came out, I liked them a lot, I wish I had.
They are rare secondhand now, if anyone knows of any I’d be grateful.

Right now there appear to be two sets on eBay and one on Reverb. Don’t know they’re the ones you’re referring to.

https://reverb.com/uk/item/47662155-aco ... e-speakers

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175463000836

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234938638486
Essex Boi
Poster
Posts: 75 Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:10 pm Location: Not the bit of Essex on the telly
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

Essex Boi wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:42 am
Arpangel wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:52 am I almost bought a pair of AE22’s when they came out, I liked them a lot, I wish I had.
They are rare secondhand now, if anyone knows of any I’d be grateful.

Right now there appear to be two sets on eBay and one on Reverb. Don’t know they’re the ones you’re referring to.

https://reverb.com/uk/item/47662155-aco ... e-speakers

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175463000836

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234938638486

Thanks a lot, the Reverb pair look OK, Peterborough, but the other two are Glasgow and Birmingham, a bit too far.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Sam Spoons »

philb wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:36 pm Agree totally, although there's two options. Let's say buy some at 1.500 now, put 500 in basic treatment. Then treat room step by step, and monitors are sounding better with every step more in treatment.

Option B: Buy monitors for 500 (obviously worse sound capabilities), other 1500 in treatment. Then wanting to use more of the potential by treatment, trying to sell these 500 ones for 300, having a loss of 200 and still not the money to buy the 1.500 ones.

Difficult :bouncy::D

And agaoim, I totally agree that treatment is fundamental in any case, as said, already in contact with GIK; they have a sketch of my room now, and waiting for some further response 8-)

Total cost for DIY panels in my 4 x 4 m room, <£350. that's 7 x broad band absorbers and 3 x bass traps. The difference compared to the untreated room is massive. As I said in my earlier post, buy the Neumann KH80's and spend £500 on treatment, the extra £1k may get you another 10% improvement over the first £500 but the first £500 will get you 70-80% of the way.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado
Posts: 20021 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
People often mistake me for a grown-up because of my age.

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by tea for two »

I like mixing early in the morning. I find after giving my ears a chance to rest from the previous day's noise, my judgement is better in the early morning.
Also there's far less surrounding outside noise so that helps me as well.
I couldn't mix on monitors, speakers, in the mornings as I live in a flat.
Headphones it is.
Premium Sound in Kensington, London, they let me audition over 2hours nearly a dozen headphones all the way up to £3K. Auditioning is downstairs so there's some privacy. Really accomodating staff. They just left me to it.

I know hearing the sound from monitors speakers is preferred by many. However, if there are other things to consider as neighbours, unsociable hours we like to mix, then we don't have much of a choice except to go headphones. More so if we don't have a separate acoustically treated studio room, only lounge/bedroom/kitchen to mix in.
Whereupon it's well worth taking a train journey to audition headphones to choose the ones suitable for the music we make mix especially if we are going to drop £1K+ on cans.
tea for two
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3651 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by ef37a »

Can I inject a question and perhaps a note of caution here Tea for Two?

You say you do not use speakers because of a possible upset to neighbours? Well, unsocial hours apart, maybe you are running them at too high a level and the cans as well?
I am sat here listening to a Beethoven piano trio some two mtrs from my Tannoy 5As and find the volume level perfectly 'natural' and on a meter that is indicating 65 to 70 dBC average with the finale peak at 78dBC. Tom McKinney is in fact louder on average than the music! I find that level for music quite satisfactory and I am registered deaf!
I switched to R1 (the sacrifices I make for this forum!) and cranked the volume to an average of 85dBC. Too loud for me and could be a nuisance at 1am!

Hugh has 'done' monitor calibration at least a couple of times this decade? The usual level suggested for monitors is 83dBC but Hugh has always stated I understand that the low 80s is often too loud for a 'domestic' situation and 10dB lower is more acceptable. By just my personal preference and luck that is where I seem to be!

So I am saying Tea, you should not be annoying folk, at least not at civilized times and you 'might' be running cans at damaging levels?

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16913 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by tea for two »

ef37a wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:42 am Can I inject a question and perhaps a note of caution here Tea for Two?
I am saying Tea, you should not be annoying folk, at least not at civilized times and you 'might' be running cans at damaging levels?

Appreciated E.

I started mixing just after 7am lol.
It's cause I'm currently working on an EDM album with some heavy beatz low Bass. It's the only EDM album I've made.
Most of my other stuff I can mix at low volume which I tend to do.
My ears are slightly damaged over years of abuse, more so my left ear. Even though I can hear 20Hz I have to increase to +3dB on a Sine Wave Test Tone in Logic Oscillator to properly hear 20Hz.
tea for two
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3651 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by ef37a »

tea for two wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:44 am
ef37a wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:42 am Can I inject a question and perhaps a note of caution here Tea for Two?
I am saying Tea, you should not be annoying folk, at least not at civilized times and you 'might' be running cans at damaging levels?

Appreciated E.

I started mixing just after 7am lol.
It's cause I'm currently working on an EDM album with some heavy beatz low Bass. It's the only EDM album I've made.
Most of my other stuff I can mix at low volume which I tend to do.
My ears are slightly damaged over years of abuse, more so my left ear. Even though I can hear 20Hz I have to increase to +3dB on a Sine Wave Test Tone in Logic Oscillator to properly hear 20Hz.

WHY on earth are you struggling to hear 20Hz Tea?!! There is nothing remotely musical going on down there and only the very biggest speakers in a huge room could reproduce it.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16913 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

T42 is currently immersed in an EDM-fest which involves a deep rumbly bass. It's intended for playback on big club and festival PAs which can generate 20Hz.

Although while we can, technically, hear 20Hz, in practice we feel it which obviously isn't something that can be done over headphones.
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 39540 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by tea for two »

I have lost meself to EDM for my sins :lol::beamup:
tea for two
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3651 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by muzines »

Anyone mixing bangin' beats at 7am* gets my sympathy**..! :lol:

* (after getting up, not staying out all night)

** As do their neighbours...
User avatar
muzines
Jedi Poster
Posts: 12286 Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:00 am
..............................mu:zines | music magazine archive | difficultAudio  | Legacy Logic Project Conversion

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by ore_terra »

After reading this post and others I was nearly decided to get a pair of the new kh120, but this add came up with a “VAT-less day” in a local store… and I just pulled the trigger for a pair of A7V’s for 1050€ 🤷‍♂️
User avatar
ore_terra
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1071 Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:56 pm Location: Seville - Spain
casmoestudio.com

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

muzines wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:27 am Anyone mixing bangin' beats at 7am* gets my sympathy**..! :lol:

* (after getting up, not staying out all night)

** As do their neighbours...

Sounds dope Bro.

:)
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by tea for two »

What could possibly be handy is if there was a software where we could draw our room including windows doors ceiling floor, with measurements angles, alongside what the room is constructed of.
Have it with and without Virtual acoustic treatment.
Thereafter have various Virtual Monitors virtually placed in different parts of our virtual room to hear them.

Similar in principle in a way to drum software where we can change the drums size, skin, mic positioning, types or mics.
Similar in principle in a way to amp cab modelling simulating software.
Similar in principle in a way to software that attempts to emulate simulate sound of different studios.
tea for two
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3651 Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by Arpangel »

tea for two wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:04 am What could possibly be handy is if there was a software where we could draw our room including windows doors ceiling floor, with measurements angles, alongside what the room is constructed of.
Have it with and without Virtual acoustic treatment.
Thereafter have various Virtual Monitors virtually placed in different parts of our virtual room to hear them.

Similar in principle in a way to drum software where we can change the drums size, skin, mic positioning, types or mics.
Similar in principle in a way to amp cab modelling simulating software.
Similar in principle in a way to software that attempts to emulate simulate sound of different studios.

A friend went round a few top London studios and made recordings in the control room of each one using a binaural head with two B&K 4006 mic's in it.
That was an "interesting" "experiment" :) ?
He also recorded my hi-fi in my living room, a pair of Celestion Dutton 15 speakers, surprisingly, my recording sounded better, than some of the studios, maybe better isn’t a good word, but let’s say it held up well.
Not sure about virtual room software? could be a whole can of worms there.
User avatar
Arpangel
Jedi Poster
Posts: 16905 Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:00 am

Re: Nearfields Monitors: Kali vs Adam vs Focal

Post by ore_terra »

tea for two wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:04 am What could possibly be handy is if there was a software where we could draw our room including windows doors ceiling floor, with measurements angles, alongside what the room is constructed of.
Have it with and without Virtual acoustic treatment.
Thereafter have various Virtual Monitors virtually placed in different parts of our virtual room to hear them.

Similar in principle in a way to drum software where we can change the drums size, skin, mic positioning, types or mics.
Similar in principle in a way to amp cab modelling simulating software.
Similar in principle in a way to software that attempts to emulate simulate sound of different studios.

Well, in theory you can. In the end it’s “just” wave physics.

The only tiny little problem is the huge amount of variables you have. Materials, thicknesses, surface finishes, geometry, openings… 😂

But the same way structural design softwares exist (thinking of similar multi-variable scenarios based in physics and statistical calculations), I dont see why this software could not exist.
User avatar
ore_terra
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1071 Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:56 pm Location: Seville - Spain
casmoestudio.com
Post Reply