Emotional music composition

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Emotional music composition

Post by tea for two »

To state the obvious various music evokes various emotions in us.

Music from major musicians bands, music from live performers wherever they are performing, from unknowns online streaming platforms, music from SoS forumees.

However is composing emotional music in anyway manipulative of our emotions.
Is manipulative too strong a word for this.

Film music necessarily is this way, so as to evoke emotions in us to supplement the visuals.
Similarly library composers, those composing to a brief for a documentary, a game, necessarily have to compose music in such a way as to draw some emotions out of us.

How about any music we listen to regularly that draws whichever emotions out of us.
Could these in anyway be considered somewhat manipulative of our emotions.

How about music we compose.
Do we compose it according to the emotion/s we are feeling at that time, thereafter whoever listens to it can take whatever from it or not it's up to them.

Are there times where we have felt our music needs such an such here, so we do such and such to get to a particular emotion : could this be considered somewhat manipulative of emotions in anyway.

With vocals we can't avoid our words having emotional pointers. However are we writing our vocals solely for ourself and or in such a way as to draw emotional response from a listener.

And or do we just noodle whatever comes out comes out.

::

When I make instrumental music, it's the only type of music I make, I don't start out for it to be emotional nor convey any particular feeling.
I just noodle thereafter make it into a piece. With more noodlings as and when piece requires.
Afterwards I usually give it a title to convey what it means to me.
For instance on my Guitar Plucked instrument album I have titles as : What is dear to my heart; Staying in my own lane. On my Keyboard album I have titles as : So many kept going so many didn't make it; Smiling after crying.
Titles which probably could would manipulate someone's emotions in some way.
Although the music wasn't isn't this way when I started completed it.

I liked in Mike Oldfield and JmJarre several of their albums just a have a title for the album, with the parts numbered that's it. Leaving it up to the listener to take whatever emotions feelings from the music.
I have three albums as this no music titles just the title of album.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

First off, let’s get this straight, sad songs are always the best songs.
Happy is just annoying, doesn’t cut it, musically.
When I make music I'm always looking for that note that’ll hit a nerve, I’m after sad, disturbing, uneasy.
Any music can hold emotion, anything, even if it’s totally atonal it can promote an emotional response in the right context, and that’s the key, anything, can evoke any emotion you want it to, in the right context.
The song Happy Birthday To You, is a happy song, I recorded a version of it that will have you slitting your wrists, it makes me cry every time I hear it.
Sadness is a very powerful emotion, and it’s often associated with some of the worlds greatest music. But I have to be clear, I’m talking about sad, not "sentimental"
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by RichardT »

However is composing emotional music in anyway manipulative of our emotions.
Is manipulative too strong a word for this.

I don't think it needs to be manipulative. It's can be more expressive of our emotions, and that's a good thing for the music.

However, there's a lot of 'fake emoting' in music where singers try to convey an emotion they are not feeling, and that's bad for the music and very manipulative - but of the audience mostly, not themselves.

This is not a new thing - I feel that about Shirley Bassey for example.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

.. but that's what people are paying for isn't it? Depends on overall preferences and mood in the moment. There are times when it is questionable to manipulate the emotions of others - but that revolves around the lack of consent to do so. A good example for me would be psychological research, which has had to clean up its act immensely since its early days of banging pots behind babies to see how high they jumped. It's now much more difficult to get ethical approval for experimental psyche interventions, particularly when they invoke negative emotion in the subjects. How to explain the legendary opus "Love Me Like A Reptile" by Motorhead - I don't know.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by RichardT »

Yes, some people like it (or don't feel manipulated).

For me good examples are 'Someone You Loved' by Lewis Capaldi and 'Leave a Light On' by Tom Walker.

Lots of people love them but to me they really grate.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Hmmm. I think when I write a song (or create anything else really), I'm generally trying to do two things.
1) share an idea, a feeling or an emotion,
2) trigger an emotional reaction in the listener / reader / viewer.

The first is for my benefit, the second is for the benefit of the receiver.
If I can't trigger that emotional response then I may have created something useful (an information piece) but I won't have created something "artistic" or engaging.

Is deliberately trying to trigger a particular emotive response manipulative? Probably, but I think it is done with the permission and co-operation of the receiver.
For example, if you go to watch a horror movie you are inviting yourself to be scared. If you go to stand-up show you are inviting yourself to be amused - and if you sit at the front you are inviting yourself to be involved. ;)

If I see a thread on this forum that's titled 'all modern music is rubbish', that's an invitation to a debate; one that might trigger all kinds of emotions in me. I have a choice about whether or not to engage in that.

So when I put on the latest Tom McRae album I am inviting myself to have my emotions tugged by songs of heartache and regret.
Similarly, if someone puts on one of my albums they're mentally opening themselves up to boredom and mediocrity.
And if you put on something you've never heard before then you're knowingly inviting a situation where you don't know how your emotions may be tweaked.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

Drew Stephenson wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:18 pm And if you put on something you've never heard before then you're knowingly inviting a situation where you don't know how your emotions may be tweaked.

... and that's why its hard to engage certain demographics with new music - because they 'know what they like, and they like what they know'. If they are going to pay good money to be emotionally undermined - they want to be able to trust who they allow to do that to them.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by RichardT »

Is deliberately trying to trigger a particular emotive response manipulative? Probably, but I think it is done with the permission and co-operation of the receiver

I don’t think that’s manipulative - that’s what music is for!
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Drew Stephenson »

RichardT wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:05 pm
Is deliberately trying to trigger a particular emotive response manipulative? Probably, but I think it is done with the permission and co-operation of the receiver

I don’t think that’s manipulative - that’s what music is for!

Well, I agree that's what it's for but I think it could be argued it's manipulative but not in a bad way.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

amanise wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:03 am .. but that's what people are paying for isn't it?

Yes.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

Arpangel wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:26 pm
amanise wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:03 am .. but that's what people are paying for isn't it?

Yes.

... except me. They're not paying me! Don't they know who I am??
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

amanise wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:06 am ... except me. They're not paying me! Don't they know who I am??

Money and musicians have always been poor bed fellows, we act as though money is somehow a bad thing, and it’s all to do with the music, we almost seem embarrassed and degraded having to talk about money, like, it’s not "cool" man.
We often look down upon musicians who are incredibly financially successful, like they’ve "sold out" man.
The reality of it is we need money, so that we can sit in studios making all this music, without money we’d have to work in Tescos or paint peoples houses, in which case we wouldn’t have any time to make music.
A lot of famous musicians have lived on the dole, and looked at it almost like an "artists grant" while they were getting their careers off the ground.
I would liked to have made enough money to "live" from my music, not a fortune, just enough to get by, but I haven’t even done that, but you pay your money and make your choices, the music I’ve been involved in isn’t in any way commercial. If money from music is your focus, and there’s nothing wrong with that, then you have to gear yourself up to work in a well defined market, and also persuade those with the big cigars that they can make money out of you, that’s the most difficult thing to do, and it’s definitely a two way relationship.
We often talk about the "music business" I’m not in that, but if you are, it’s a nightmare, I know people who have been, and it’s run by gangsters basically, they’ll rip you off at every turn unless you’ve got eyes in the back of your head and a good lawyer.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:53 am ...
We often talk about the "music business" I’m not in that, but if you are, it’s a nightmare, I know people who have been, and it’s run by gangsters basically, they’ll rip you off at every turn unless you’ve got eyes in the back of your head and a good lawyer.

Yes, agreed with all that - and following the advent of the CD -> ripping -> Internet -> streaming pathway everyone expects music to be a free commodity anyway. I've had a couple of opportunities along the way, to be part of the 'music business' you refer to. On reflection I'm glad they didn't work out because it's always been a passion for me - and it's rarely good when you try and convert a passion into a business. There few more effective passion killers than the injection of money into the equation. I was just ranting - you know me.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by tea for two »

Here's a list of 271 emotions.
It's pretty understandable that we myself included can't quite pin down emotion/s we are feeling, emotion/s we are conveying or not in our compositions.
We are, our compositions are far more varied than just "sad happy."
So a list of emotions as this can be useful.
https://www.berkeleywellbeing.com/list-of-emotions.html
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by OneWorld »

Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

tea for two wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:40 am Here's a list of 271 emotions.
It's pretty understandable that we myself included can't quite pin down emotion/s we are feeling, emotion/s we are conveying or not in our compositions.
We are, our compositions are far more varied than just "sad happy."
So a list of emotions as this can be useful.
https://www.berkeleywellbeing.com/list-of-emotions.html

I bet someone will try and trigger them all now....
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by OneWorld »

tea for two wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:40 am Here's a list of 271 emotions.
It's pretty understandable that we myself included can't quite pin down emotion/s we are feeling, emotion/s we are conveying or not in our compositions.
We are, our compositions are far more varied than just "sad happy."
So a list of emotions as this can be useful.
https://www.berkeleywellbeing.com/list-of-emotions.html


I notice it's a .dot.com whatever emotions are, there's money in them thar emotions, and from what I see from the 'emotions industry' there's a good living to be made out of it, probably far more than you get from singing about them

[quotes fixed to reflect correct poster - Andy :beamup: ]
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Sam Spoons »

OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

I suspect it's more a matter of attitude than actual skill (assuming both can do at least a passably decent job). We've all come across the technically excellent musician/sound guy/WHY who is difficult to work with and in most cases the guy we'd phone would be the competent but easy to get along with guy.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

Sam Spoons wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:30 pm ...
I suspect it's more a matter of attitude than actual skill (assuming both can do at least a passably decent job). We've all come across the technically excellent musician/sound guy/WHY who is difficult to work with and in most cases the guy we'd phone would be the competent but easy to get along with guy.

Exactly that. After a 30 year career in medical IT I can safely say I have met a lot of very gifted technical people - and have had many working for me at different times. There are some, though, you just have to let go no matter how gifted they are. If nobody can work with them - or they habitually alienate people they provide a service to - there's not much you can do to help them.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

Building a wall? It’s either straight and level, or it’s wrong.
Making music, well?
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Received this message from a stranger on Instagram today, "[it] has had quite an emotional impact this morning which I must try & process.
“Goodnight” in particular has broken something inside me, in a good way, though I’m not sure quite what yet. I’ll have a good cry, listen again & let it sit in my soul awhile."

I'm not going to say that this is what it's all about, but I can't think of any better reasons to be making music at the moment.

Give it another 10 years and I might find a third fan. ;)
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Eddy Deegan »

Drew Stephenson wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:53 pm Received this message from a stranger on Instagram today, "[it] has had quite an emotional impact this morning which I must try & process.
“Goodnight” in particular has broken something inside me, in a good way, though I’m not sure quite what yet. I’ll have a good cry, listen again & let it sit in my soul awhile."

I'm not going to say that this is what it's all about, but I can't think of any better reasons to be making music at the moment.

Give it another 10 years and I might find a third fan. ;)

I've not experienced that exact response to your music Drew but it's very evocative for me in my own ways and I grok where your correspondent is coming from. I'm glad they gave you that feedback, it's well deserved :thumbup::clap:
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Thanks Eddy, your fiver is in the post. ;)
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by OneWorld »

Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

Building a wall? It’s either straight and level, or it’s wrong.
Making music, well?

Same difference, only 2 kinds of music - good, and krap.

It's either straight and level, or it's wrong - the Great Wall of China isn't straight and level, but seeing as it's still stood, it must be right (opposite of wrong)

Are you inferring a builder only builds walls? That's like saying musicians can only play a 3 chord trick. They build houses too, and when a house becomes a home, it can have an emotional currency too.

Thing is with music, or more to the point musicians - we are pathologically pre-disposed to take ourselves too seriously. That said, when I have listened to interviews with the 'greats', nay, the 'legends' of music making, it is sort of encouraging how so many of them, are very matter of fact, grounded and quite humbled and pragmatic. The sort of people you could imagine having a pint with and a bit of banter down the pub. They are good at what they do and and what they do is good, that's about the extent of their self-analysis, "I got money in the bank, so I must be doing something right"
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:18 pm
Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

Building a wall? It’s either straight and level, or it’s wrong.
Making music, well?

Same difference, only 2 kinds of music - good, and krap.

Are you inferring a builder only builds walls? That's like saying musicians can only play a 3 chord trick. They build houses too, and when a house becomes a home, it can have an emotional currency too

We are now defining the role of a builder, a master builder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKfTKNp_yUI
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Drew Stephenson »

"When I was a King and a Mason - a Master proven and skilled
I cleared me ground for a Palace such as a King should build.
I decreed and dug down to my levels. Presently under the silt
I came on the wreck of a Palace such as a King had built. "
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by OneWorld »

Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:18 pm
Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

Building a wall? It’s either straight and level, or it’s wrong.
Making music, well?

Same difference, only 2 kinds of music - good, and krap.

Are you inferring a builder only builds walls? That's like saying musicians can only play a 3 chord trick. They build houses too, and when a house becomes a home, it can have an emotional currency too

We are now defining the role of a builder, a master builder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKfTKNp_yUI

You might be, I'm not. Your statement requires some clarification - can you define the roles please? For clarification purposes, I am using an analogy (builders v composers) to illustrate a point, not establishing definitions.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by OneWorld »

Drew Stephenson wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:34 pm "When I was a King and a Mason - a Master proven and skilled
I cleared me ground for a Palace such as a King should build.
I decreed and dug down to my levels. Presently under the silt
I came on the wreck of a Palace such as a King had built. "


It must have been a Barrat home then
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by Arpangel »

OneWorld wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:00 am
Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:22 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:18 pm
Arpangel wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:36 pm
OneWorld wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm Music is like any other trade, like a bricklayer for instance, if you're any good, they'll call you, if you're not so good, you call them.

A friend of mine for instance is never short of work, why? he's a good brickie, he gets so many offers of work he's turning more work away than work he accepts, he's like the Taylor Swift of brick-laying. Another pal of mine, another brickie, scrats about doing bits and bobs, he thinks and opines a lot, but that's about as far as he gets

Building a wall? It’s either straight and level, or it’s wrong.
Making music, well?

Same difference, only 2 kinds of music - good, and krap.

Are you inferring a builder only builds walls? That's like saying musicians can only play a 3 chord trick. They build houses too, and when a house becomes a home, it can have an emotional currency too

We are now defining the role of a builder, a master builder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKfTKNp_yUI

You might be, I'm not. Your statement requires some clarification - can you define the roles please? For clarification purposes, I am using an analogy (builders v composers) to illustrate a point, not establishing definitions.

That’s exactly it, the role of a musician cannot easily be defined, compared to a builder, and using this as an analogy doesn’t really work.
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Re: Emotional music composition

Post by amanise »

I think I've entered some kind of emotional civil engineering twilight zone....
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