My Eye Your Eye - Feedback welcome please

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My Eye Your Eye - Feedback welcome please

Post by amanise »

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-manise/my ... al_sharing

At least I'm doing this bit in the right area this time. I tried Drews last advisory gem and set the tracks up on this early using pink noise level balancing. I hope I muted the pink noise track before offering it to you for comment!! It's an amazing technique! Everyone - go get a pink noise generator now! I'm converted!

This may well be my first ever track without a face melting guitar solo. Hmm. Feels a bit like you're all getting off too lightly!
Thanks in advance
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Post by Drew Stephenson »

Firstly I must just leap in to give credit where it's due and say that the pink noise mixing tip comes originally from Zukan (I think), I just passed it on. :)

I've just had a quick listen to this on the laptop but my initial thoughts are that the instrument separation seems better than a couple of the previous tracks you've shared, and I think the top end is better controlled as well. :thumbup:
I think the drums need to come up though and the bass down quite a bit. There could be a bit more rhythmic drive from the snare and the bass is overwhelming the kick to my ears.

I'm sure better ears than mine will be along in due course to correct me though.
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Post by RichardT »

Wow - that's totally unique! Some very interesting music. Very good...

My first thoughts are that the second time through the verse/ chorus, something different needs to happen.

Also when you get to the middle section, it would be very interesting if the whole track emerged from the 'listening through a tunnel filled with jelly' effect into something clearer (especially with more open high frequencies), and then went back in again for the last section.
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Post by amanise »

Smashing - thanks for your time and ears Drew! I wondered if the drums were a bit low, but my ears needed a rest from it , and your comments are good confirmation. Thanks very much, I appreciate it.
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Post by amanise »

RichardT wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:21 pm Wow - that's totally unique! Some very interesting music. Very good...

My first thoughts are that the second time through the verse/ chorus, something different needs to happen.

Also when you get to the middle section, it would be very interesting if the whole track emerged from the 'listening through a tunnel filled with jelly' effect into something clearer (especially with more open high frequencies), and then went back in again for the last section.

Tee Hee! Unique... I like that - I have no idea where it comes from. I find it impossible to fit it into any of the normal genres. Makes submission hard. It is what it is. Perhaps the second verse should have some slide guitar swooping in and out or something hmmm.

I think the jelly filled tunnel might be the flanger on the drums - or the phaser on the bass guitar - or both? Interesting idea going clean for that section. Doable with a few more tracks and busses I suspect. Hmm.

I don't know how they do that EDM thing with the whooshing sweeping EQ business that sounds like your emerging from a bucket of water. Did you mean that?

Thanks very much Richard!
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Post by RichardT »

Yes, the tunnel effect is the result of the effects you're using.

I wasn't thinking of that EDM effect, but it might work. I don't know how to do it either but I suspect there are synth patches or sample libraries that can achieve it.
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Post by OneWorld »

Funnily enough, I have spent the morning re-visting a time (by way of YouTube) where I was smitten from day one, when I came across ISB - the Incredible String Band, and since then I don't think I have come across anything quite so unpretentious and quirky, until I listened to your piece 'My Eye, Your Eye' 3 cheers and hip hip hooray, to you, for a refreshing reminder that eccentricity is alive and well - tis a musical delight
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Post by jaminem »

Really not my thing so can't comment on the actual musical content but to me its very muffled. I'd want a lot more high mids in that mix, and a lot more top end.
The squelchy bass line is sometimes too loud usually when you're singing and then sorta disappears in the chorus.
As Drew says the drums need to come up, with a heavily syncopated drum beat like this you can lose the groove when they're this low.
The thing that stands out most for me though as the almost Total lack of transients, especially on the drums, that may go a long way to understanding why they don't cut through. Not sure the flanger is helping you here, is it across the whole drum bus? if so maybe just on the snare and fade in when there's not much else going on? That way you get the effect when there's space in the mix but a better groove otherwise
like the vocal effect tho
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Post by amanise »

RichardT wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:48 am Yes, the tunnel effect is the result of the effects you're using.

I wasn't thinking of that EDM effect, but it might work. I don't know how to do it either but I suspect there are synth patches or sample libraries that can achieve it.

I wonder if its the 'humanised' (love that effect!) guitar chopping away in there that's making your ears want to listen to something less mangled for a bit in the middle? The other stuff in that section is fairly straightforward in terms of modulation effects. Do you think your ears would get what they were looking for if I replaced the rhythm guitar as is with a clean acoustic guitar chopping away instead - just for that middle section? Then went back to the 'humanise' guitar for the last verse?
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Post by amanise »

OneWorld wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:58 am Funnily enough, I have spent the morning re-visting a time (by way of YouTube) where I was smitten from day one, when I came across ISB - the Incredible String Band, and since then I don't think I have come across anything quite so unpretentious and quirky, until I listened to your piece 'My Eye, Your Eye' 3 cheers and hip hip hooray, to you, for a refreshing reminder that eccentricity is alive and well - tis a musical delight

Wow! I think that's one of the nicest compliments I've ever had!
Don't know what to say - except thanks very much! I'm going to print this one out and hang it on the wall next to my orchestral instrument frequency chart!
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Post by amanise »

jaminem wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:22 am Really not my thing so can't comment on the actual musical content but to me its very muffled. I'd want a lot more high mids in that mix, and a lot more top end.
The squelchy bass line is sometimes too loud usually when you're singing and then sorta disappears in the chorus.
As Drew says the drums need to come up, with a heavily syncopated drum beat like this you can lose the groove when they're this low.
The thing that stands out most for me though as the almost Total lack of transients, especially on the drums, that may go a long way to understanding why they don't cut through. Not sure the flanger is helping you here, is it across the whole drum bus? if so maybe just on the snare and fade in when there's not much else going on? That way you get the effect when there's space in the mix but a better groove otherwise
like the vocal effect tho

OK - thanks for taking the time to hear it through - and great feedback! You chime with Drew - that there's too much bottom end and not enough of the drum track (which does have the flanger on the whole bus, but not below about 450Hz). Starting point for me, then, is to push the drum track closer to the limiter and see if the rhythm comes through more clearly from there. And lower the phased bass guitar in the right side. The wah'd synth bass in the left side (representing the keyboard players left hand) may come down if it then overpowers everything else. I'm very pleased you like the vocal effect - it helps me with my self perception of the sound of my own voice :-) - a bit of a protective force field. Is it wrong that it involves a bit of TC Helicon kit? :lol:
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Post by jaminem »

I wouldn't push the drums into the limiter, I'd add some transients, compress them and raise the level a db or 2

Don't think you need to remove bass, just tighten it up a bit. but add high mids and highs. Air band is your friend here it will bring out the hats
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Post by jaminem »

Oh and remember, everyone hates their own voice, we won't perceive it anywhere near as bad as you do!
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Post by amanise »

jaminem wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:29 pm Oh and remember, everyone hates their own voice, we won't perceive it anywhere near as bad as you do!

Thanks again. Chiming with Drew once more. From inside my head - that's easier said than done :) Melodyne usually has surprisingly little work to do though, thankfully. So there's some support there for your kind thoughts.
Smashing! Now I just need to look up 'add transients'. :-)
I thought we were always trying to obliterate those with compressors. :bouncy:
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Post by jaminem »

what DAW you got mate? there's probably a transient shaper in there. Cubase has one as std. Use with care tho, you can overdo it.

There are plenty of free transient shaper plugins around
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Post by amanise »

jaminem wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:09 pm what DAW you got mate? there's probably a transient shaper in there. Cubase has one as std. Use with care tho, you can overdo it.

There are plenty of free transient shaper plugins around

ACID Pro 10. I'll see what its got - ACID Music was the only DAW I could understand when I started all this back in about 2001. Tried CuBase - but what can I say? I'm a guitarist :-)
Cheers for your help! I've done a V2 and I think I've been able to catch most of the things people pointed out. Need to have a think now because I might lose the phaser on the bass guitar track. It might be a wobbler too far now I've had another listen on cheapish room monitors. :bouncy:
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Post by Chet Leeway »

Sounds a bit like a male Cate le Bon with too many (is there such a thing?) effect pedals.
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Post by Drew Stephenson »

Was going to give it a proper listen but I'll wait for v2 if you wanted to share that.
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Post by amanise »

Chet Leeway wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:20 pm Sounds a bit like a male Cate le Bon with too many (is there such a thing?) effect pedals.

No such thing as too many pedals if you're a guitarist :-)
Had to look her up too :-)

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/perso ... urney-home

"The music of Cate Le Bon, the singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist, has a rigorous, art-school weirdness that can be both entrancing and estranging. "

Happy to be compared with that - thanks!
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Post by amanise »

Drew Stephenson wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:55 pm Was going to give it a proper listen but I'll wait for v2 if you wanted to share that.

Hi Drew - yes, I've tipped the upper mids curve up a bit and added in a few more strategically placed snare hits in the verses starting at verse 2 to hit both your point and Richards(?) one about something new should happen at verse 2. Extra drums! Toying with the idea of removing the phaser effect from the bass guitar on the right side (not the boingy wah synth bass on the left side). It might lessen the 'tube' effect. I like it - but it might be a pedal too far in respect of some of the other feedback. Might have found out why people don't phase bass much. I wonder if you might find it a bit toppy now though - we'll see tomorrow! :bouncy:
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Post by James Perrett »

I may be wrong but to me this has a feeling of "I've got a hundred plug-ins and I'm going to use them". The only problem is that to me it feels over congested and muffled. I'm yearning for a bit of clarity to at least some of the sounds.
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Post by amanise »

James Perrett wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:20 pm I may be wrong but to me this has a feeling of "I've got a hundred plug-ins and I'm going to use them". The only problem is that to me it feels over congested and muffled. I'm yearning for a bit of clarity to at least some of the sounds.

Hi James - thanks very much for listening! That seals the fate for the phaser on the bass guitar. Seemed to work on headphones - but not on room monitors. I now have my work cut out for the evening :-)
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Post by RichardT »

amanise wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:04 pm
James Perrett wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:20 pm I may be wrong but to me this has a feeling of "I've got a hundred plug-ins and I'm going to use them". The only problem is that to me it feels over congested and muffled. I'm yearning for a bit of clarity to at least some of the sounds.

Hi James - thanks very much for listening! That seals the fate for the phaser on the bass guitar. Seemed to work on headphones - but not on room monitors. I now have my work cut out for the evening :-)

I think it’s fine if you want that sound as a deliberate effect - but we do need a bit of relief (clarity, as James said) somewhere in the song.

If you want the track to sound clearer everywhere, then essentially you need to take off nearly all the effects.
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Post by amanise »

RichardT wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:32 pm
amanise wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:04 pm
James Perrett wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:20 pm I may be wrong but to me this has a feeling of "I've got a hundred plug-ins and I'm going to use them". The only problem is that to me it feels over congested and muffled. I'm yearning for a bit of clarity to at least some of the sounds.

Hi James - thanks very much for listening! That seals the fate for the phaser on the bass guitar. Seemed to work on headphones - but not on room monitors. I now have my work cut out for the evening :-)

I think it’s fine if you want that sound as a deliberate effect - but we do need a bit of relief (clarity, as James said) somewhere in the song.

If you want the track to sound clearer everywhere, then essentially you need to take off nearly all the effects.

Yes - thanks very much Richard. I've worked my way through the list of things people fed back and I think I've got them all now. I hope I haven't made it all too toppy for Drew :-)
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Post by Drew Stephenson »

I'm a sensitive soul! :D
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Post by amanise »

Firstly - thank you all so much for taking the time to do this, as always - amazing!

I have worked though the following issues;

Drums too low - brought them up a bit
Rhythmic drive from the snare added in the verses (carefully)
Changes made to the second verse to make if a little different (rhythm guitar weeded out until the chorus and extra snare hits start here to pick things up a bit)
'listening through a tunnel filled with jelly' in the middle section - hopefully addressed by removing the phasis plug in from the guitar bass from the whole track. (What was I thinking?) Tightens things up down below a bit all the way through and now there are some transients! (I think)
Tweaked up the high mids and the top end - but being careful as I am often too brash!
V2 is now up here, for anyone who wants to have another listen now;

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-manise/my ... al_sharing

Thank you all once again, and see you at the Grammys!
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Post by sonics »

What is it you're trying to create?

Lots of your sound, arrangement and mix choices are quite obscure. I have to admit that I got through only 30s of the first mix, and just over a minute of the second. I have no source of reference, and thus I'm unable to comment; it may sound perfect as it is. I can imagine (just about, from what I heard) what I would term a "straightened-out" version, but I guess that's not what you're trying to create? If you want the mix to sound strange, then you've most definitely succeeded (that's praise, not sarcasm).
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Post by Drew Stephenson »

If this was my track, there'd be three things I'd be looking at.
Firstly I think the bass is still a bit too dominant. It's carrying a lot of energy up into the low mids and making it harder for the drums to have space.
Which brings me to secondly, to me the drums and bass parts feel like they're working against each other in the verses, but it might be because the kick isn't coming through clearly enough against the bass. I'm going to guess you recorded the bass part first and then added the drums?
Finally, I'd love to hear a version with a confident, unprocessed, leading vocal.
Sung by you. ;)

I say 'if this was my track' though because these are all stylistic things and it's your vision to execute. :thumbup:
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Post by tea for two »


I'm late to the show. I think this would make a triffic instrumental. Also as an instrumental doesn't require any drums percussion.
There's sciencey techy shows this would be superb for as an instrumental theme tune without drums percussion.
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Post by amanise »

sonics wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:04 pm What is it you're trying to create?

Lots of your sound, arrangement and mix choices are quite obscure. I have to admit that I got through only 30s of the first mix, and just over a minute of the second. I have no source of reference, and thus I'm unable to comment; it may sound perfect as it is. I can imagine (just about, from what I heard) what I would term a "straightened-out" version, but I guess that's not what you're trying to create? If you want the mix to sound strange, then you've most definitely succeeded (that's praise, not sarcasm).

Yes, obscure is a good way of putting it! There's no plan (apart from using the instrumentation that I like) when I put these together. This is a hobbyist here - not a seasoned pro. Strange is good, this one started withe lyrics - and then the drums were picked out around the rhythm they made. Just about everything I do ends up off beat and syncopated. I paint myself into lots of corners. Thanks for taking the time to test the water!
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